Re: Fyi: this list, libreplanet-dev, just had it's subject [tag] and footer removed

Re: Fyi: this list, libreplanet-dev, just had it's subject [tag] and footer removed

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 520 bytes --]

sysadmin@gnu.org wrote:
> The Free Software Foundation has changed the GNU Mailman settings on this list. The short version is that any subject prefix or message footer has been removed, allowing us to turn off DMARC from munging.

Thank you.  Iʼve got this notification for many lists — some of them were so dead that Iʼve even forgotten of their existence, though not for this one — libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org.  Does it mean that you stuck with unfortunate decision to munge mail here nevertheless?

[-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 487 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Fyi: this list, libreplanet-dev, just had it's subject [tag] and footer removed

[Ian Kelling]

Dmitry Alexandrov <321942@gmail.com> writes:

> sysadmin@gnu.org wrote:
>> The Free Software Foundation has changed the GNU Mailman settings on this list. The short version is that any subject prefix or message footer has been removed, allowing us to turn off DMARC from munging.
>
> Thank you.  Iʼve got this notification for many lists — some of them were so dead that Iʼve even forgotten of their existence, though not for this one — libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org.  Does it mean that you stuck with unfortunate decision to munge mail here nevertheless?

Yes, for now. Are there any more people who want the footer removed
here? Right now, the From address gets changed for senders to Someone
via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>, removing
the footer would allow us to keep the original from address.

-- 
Ian Kelling | Senior Systems Administrator, Free Software Foundation
GPG Key: B125 F60B 7B28 7FF6 A2B7  DF8F 170A F0E2 9542 95DF
https://fsf.org | https://gnu.org

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

I support removing the footer & keep the poster's email address in the From: header

[J.B. Nicholson]

Ian Kelling wrote:
> Are there any more people who want the footer removed
> here? Right now, the From address gets changed for senders to Someone
> via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>, removing
> the footer would allow us to keep the original from address.

I'd like to see both the footer removed and keeping a poster's address in 
the From: header.

Any plans to also get rid of digests (either all subscribers converted to 
undigested subscriptions or new subscribers can't turn digests on)?

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: “Get rid of digests” (was: I support removing the footer & keep the poster's email address in the From: header)

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 314 bytes --]

"J.B. Nicholson" <jbn@forestfield.org> wrote:
> Any plans to also get rid of digests (either all subscribers converted to undigested subscriptions or new subscribers can't turn digests on)?

Is there something wrong with them per se?  Except, that most of the people have no clue how to use them properly, I mean.

[-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 487 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

The old list address <libreplanet-discuss@lists.libreplanet.org>

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 274 bytes --]

By the way, this list was moved from libreplanet-discuss@lists.libreplanet.org few months ago.

Thatʼs nice, perhaps, however, what is not nice is that the old address was not retained as an alias, so anyone who tries to reply to an old thread, gets a delivery failure.

[-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 487 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: “Get rid of digests” (was: I support removing the footer & keep the poster's email address in the From: header)

[Adam Van Ymeren]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 637 bytes --]

On Thu., Oct. 31, 2019, 10:01 a.m. Dmitry Alexandrov, <321942@gmail.com>
wrote:

> "J.B. Nicholson" <jbn@forestfield.org> wrote:
> > Any plans to also get rid of digests (either all subscribers converted
> to undigested subscriptions or new subscribers can't turn digests on)?
>
> Is there something wrong with them per se?  Except, that most of the
> people have no clue how to use them properly, I mean.
>

How does one use digests "properly?"

_______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 892 bytes --]

   On Thu., Oct. 31, 2019, 10:01 a.m. Dmitry Alexandrov,
   <[1]321942@gmail.com> wrote:

     "J.B. Nicholson" <[2]jbn@forestfield.org> wrote:
     > Any plans to also get rid of digests (either all subscribers
     converted to undigested subscriptions or new subscribers can't turn
     digests on)?
     Is there something wrong with them per se?  Except, that most of the
     people have no clue how to use them properly, I mean.

   How does one use digests "properly?"

     _______________________________________________
     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     [3]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     [4]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
     s

References

   1. mailto:321942@gmail.com
   2. mailto:jbn@forestfield.org
   3. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   4. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: The old list address <libreplanet-discuss@lists.libreplanet.org>

[Ian Kelling]

Dmitry Alexandrov <321942@gmail.com> writes:

> By the way, this list was moved from libreplanet-discuss@lists.libreplanet.org few months ago.
>
> Thatʼs nice, perhaps, however, what is not nice is that the old address was not retained as an alias, so anyone who tries to reply to an old thread, gets a delivery failure.

I think you are mistaken, maybe you are thinking of something
else. Checking a few messages here,
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/mbox/libreplanet-discuss/ they seem to all
be to @libreplanet.org, and our git repo of dns records seems to say
there was never an mx record for lists.libreplanet.org, which means they
would never be mail to it.


-- 
Ian Kelling | Senior Systems Administrator, Free Software Foundation
GPG Key: B125 F60B 7B28 7FF6 A2B7  DF8F 170A F0E2 9542 95DF
https://fsf.org | https://gnu.org

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: “Get rid of digests” (was: I support removing the footer & keep the poster's email address in the From: header)

[Jean Louis]

* Adam Van Ymeren <adam.vany@gmail.com> [2019-10-31 16:25]:
>    On Thu., Oct. 31, 2019, 10:01 a.m. Dmitry Alexandrov,
>    <[1]321942@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>      J.B. Nicholson <[2]jbn@forestfield.org> wrote:
>      > Any plans to also get rid of digests (either all subscribers
>      converted to undigested subscriptions or new subscribers can't turn
>      digests on)?
>      Is there something wrong with them per se?  Except, that most of the
>      people have no clue how to use them properly, I mean.
> 
>    How does one use digests properly?

Try this:
https://2ality.com/2011/05/replying-to-digests.html

In-Reply-to is important





_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: The old list address <libreplanet-discuss@lists.libreplanet.org>

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 283 bytes --]

Ian Kelling <iank@fsf.org> wrote:
> Dmitry Alexandrov <321942@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> By the way, this list was moved from libreplanet-discuss@lists.libreplanet.org few months ago.
>
> I think you are mistaken, maybe you are thinking of something else.

Yes, perhaps I were.  Sorry.

[-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 487 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Fyi: this list, libreplanet-dev, just had it's subject [tag] and footer removed

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

[-- Attachment #1.1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 291 bytes --]

Ian Kelling <iank@fsf.org> wrote:
> removing the footer would allow us to keep the original from address.

I believed, in gnu-misc-disscuss@gnu.org rewriting addresses was disabled along with footer, was not it?

It’ve just got the following message where ‘From’ is rewritten:


[-- Attachment #1.1.2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 10524 bytes --]

From: Gabe Stanton via General GNU project and free software discussions <gnu-misc-discuss@gnu.org>
To: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>, Mark Wielaard <mjw@gnu.org>
Cc: gnu-misc-discuss@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Women and GNU and RMS (was Re: something else)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 10:31:09 -0600
Message-ID: <1572539469.16861.5.camel@opengroupware.ch>

It seems their divisive techniques are continuing, and evolving. I
believe the use of (and acceptance of) the use of "old white men" to
describe people is an extension of what is seen on television and other
junk outlets. It seems they want to make all places and conversations
the same, selectively divisive. 
Some people are okay to lump together and denigrate, others are
'protected' for some reason. How is that anything but divisive. They
want some people to join, and others to leave. That's not inclusive or
helpful to the cause. It's an attempt to divide the community. Why make
it more comfortable for anyone just to kick out anyone who is 'old',
'white', or 'male', or heaven forbid, all three. 

What do we do then? Speak up and possibly help in dividing the
community? Stay silent until something really makes us upset? Form
another group, (that's dividing, that seems like not the best idea). 

I think gnu should focus on software freedoms and let individual
grievances be handled individually instead of initiating or
contributing to a smear campaign. Please if you feel the same (and have
read this far), make your voice heard somewhere, even if it's not here.
 Let the free software movement stay on task and not be divided or
distracted. 





On Thu, 2019-10-31 at 11:51 +0100, Jean Louis wrote:
> * Mark Wielaard <mjw@gnu.org> [2019-10-31 10:52]:
> > On Wed, 2019-10-30 at 22:04 -0500, wayne, steve wrote:
> > > I'll probably mute this thread after hitting send so you would be
> > > wasting invective for my sake but if it makes you feel better,
> > > knock
> > > yourself out.
> > 
> > No, we are not going to knock ourselves out. Be respectful to your
> > fellow GNU volunteers. Sexist attacks on someone pointing out
> > sexism or
> > calling them hysterical is totally uncalled for. If your
> > experiences
> > are different, then feel free to point that out. But belittling
> > someones experiences by attacking their credentials and character
> > is
> > not acceptable. Neither is calling people part of a mob and
> > criticizing
> > them for wrongs that you only speculate they may have done.
> > 
> > Also see:
> > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-misc-discuss/2019-10/msg0013
> > 9.html
> 
> It is hypocritical.
> 
> This message:
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-misc-discuss/2019-10/msg00162.
> html
> 
> was not censored. You are censoring responses to that message. That
> is
> hypocritical.
> 
> Did you see in that message calling people "old white men"? Based
> upon
> your own standards of what is kind and what not, it is kind to call
> "old white men" but it is not kind to respond to such allegations?
> 
> Defaming RMS for "disgusting public comments defending sexual
> exploitation of minors" which is absolutely not true, and which was
> debunked in my message that you censored is fine, but my message is
> not fine:
> https://gnu.support/richard-stallman/Censorship-of-the-answer-to-Sand
> ra-Loosemore-defamation-of-the-founder-of-GNU-project-on-gnu-misc-
> discuss-mailing-list-30th-October-2019.html
> 
> One big LOL to that!


[-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 487 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Fyi: this list, libreplanet-dev, just had it's subject [tag] and footer removed

[Ian Kelling]

Dmitry Alexandrov <321942@gmail.com> writes:

> Ian Kelling <iank@fsf.org> wrote:
>> removing the footer would allow us to keep the original from address.
>
> I believed, in gnu-misc-disscuss@gnu.org rewriting addresses was disabled along with footer, was not it?
>
> It’ve just got the following message where ‘From’ is rewritten:

This happens very rarely and its due to misconfigured email servers
which send us bad dkim signatures, including bad in the case that they
include nonexistent list-* headers in their list of signed headers,
which should never be done. In this case, the dkim signature failed to
verify when it got to our server, so we had to rewrite it.

2019-10-31 12:45:26.710 [1437] 1iQDZe-0000NB-Mc DKIM: d=opengroupware.ch s=dkim20160331 c=relaxed/relaxed a=rsa-sha256 b=4096 t=1572539476 x=1574353877 [verification failed - signature did not verify (headers probably modified in transit)]

I'm planning to implement an autoreply in such cases to let the posters
know to fix their mail server.

-- 
Ian Kelling | Senior Systems Administrator, Free Software Foundation
GPG Key: B125 F60B 7B28 7FF6 A2B7  DF8F 170A F0E2 9542 95DF
https://fsf.org | https://gnu.org

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Fyi: this list, libreplanet-dev, just had it's subject [tag] and footer removed

[Mike Gerwitz]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 404 bytes --]

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 15:57:09 -0400, Ian Kelling wrote:
> Yes, for now. Are there any more people who want the footer removed
> here? Right now, the From address gets changed for senders to Someone
> via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>, removing
> the footer would allow us to keep the original from address.

I'm in favor of removing the footer.

-- 
Mike Gerwitz

[-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 818 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Fyi: this list, libreplanet-dev, just had it's subject [tag] and footer removed

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1365 bytes --]

Ian Kelling <iank@fsf.org> wrote:
> Dmitry Alexandrov <321942@gmail.com> writes:
>> It’ve just got the following message where ‘From’ is rewritten:
>
> This happens very rarely and its due to misconfigured email servers which send us bad dkim signatures, including bad in the case that they include nonexistent list-* headers in their list of signed headers, which should never be done.

Yes, indeed.  Though, unfortunately, there is a header, that is fully legitimate for a user to set (and sign), but is rather abused by Mailman — thatʼs ‘Sender’.  Neither Majordomo nor public-inbox do that, why Mailman is so peculiar, I wonder.

> In this case, the dkim signature failed to verify when it got to our server, so we had to rewrite it.
>
> 2019-10-31 12:45:26.710 [1437] 1iQDZe-0000NB-Mc DKIM: d=opengroupware.ch s=dkim20160331 c=relaxed/relaxed a=rsa-sha256 b=4096 t=1572539476 x=1574353877 [verification failed - signature did not verify (headers probably modified in transit)]
>
> I'm planning to implement an autoreply in such cases to let the posters know to fix their mail server.

In the light that opengroupware.ch is <https://kolabnow.com>, which is commercial email service provider, that looks funny.  It might even be a good idea to contact them, rather than user.

In any case, thank you for taking the time to explain.

[-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 487 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: “Get rid of digests”

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 936 bytes --]

Adam Van Ymeren <adam.vany@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu., Oct. 31, 2019, 10:01 a.m. Dmitry Alexandrov, <321942@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> "J.B. Nicholson" <jbn@forestfield.org> wrote:
>> > Any plans to also get rid of digests (either all subscribers converted
>> to undigested subscriptions or new subscribers can't turn digests on)?

^^^^^
Please note, that your mail editor generates a quoting mess in attempt to hardwrap lines (for no good reason) while being unable to do that properly.

It does not reveal itself in ‘User-Agent’ header, so, alas, I cannot suggest how exactly to fix it.

>> Is there something wrong with them per se?  Except, that most of the people have no clue how to use them properly, I mean.
>
> How does one use digests "properly?"

Digest is just a bunch of message/rfc822 parts inlined into (or attached to) the message.  The MUA should be able to open any of it just as any other email.

[-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 487 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Fyi: this list, libreplanet-dev, just had it's subject [tag] and footer removed

[Gabe Stanton via libreplanet-discuss]

Aah my provider is hosing up the formatting? 
I'll make sure to 'keep formatting' in my future replies, hopefully
that'll help. Although I seem to only have that option on my first
reply, so I don't have the option on existing threads.

On Fri, 2019-11-01 at 15:51 +0300, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
> Ian Kelling <iank@fsf.org> wrote:
> > Dmitry Alexandrov <321942@gmail.com> writes:
> > > It’ve just got the following message where ‘From’ is rewritten:
> > 
> > This happens very rarely and its due to misconfigured email servers
> > which send us bad dkim signatures, including bad in the case that
> > they include nonexistent list-* headers in their list of signed
> > headers, which should never be done.
> 
> Yes, indeed.  Though, unfortunately, there is a header, that is fully
> legitimate for a user to set (and sign), but is rather abused by
> Mailman — thatʼs ‘Sender’.  Neither Majordomo nor public-inbox do
> that, why Mailman is so peculiar, I wonder.
> 
> > In this case, the dkim signature failed to verify when it got to
> > our server, so we had to rewrite it.
> > 
> > 2019-10-31 12:45:26.710 [1437] 1iQDZe-0000NB-Mc DKIM:
> > d=opengroupware.ch s=dkim20160331 c=relaxed/relaxed a=rsa-sha256
> > b=4096 t=1572539476 x=1574353877 [verification failed - signature
> > did not verify (headers probably modified in transit)]
> > 
> > I'm planning to implement an autoreply in such cases to let the
> > posters know to fix their mail server.
> 
> In the light that opengroupware.ch is <https://kolabnow.com>, which
> is commercial email service provider, that looks funny.  It might
> even be a good idea to contact them, rather than user.
> 
> In any case, thank you for taking the time to explain.
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: “Get rid of digests”

[J.B. Nicholson]

Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
> Is there something wrong with them per se?  Except, that most of the
> people have no clue how to use them properly, I mean.

I find that most MUAs don't handle digests well and this creates needless 
thread breaking. I don't blame the software mishandling on the user. 
Digests also lead to followup posts with excessive quoted material from 
people who don't edit out the superfluous text. That I do blame on the 
user, as they could take time to edit that out, but I also blame on digests 
because the digesting (by its nature) gives users so much more text to work 
with.

I don't believe digests have been in high demand for the past decade or so 
(based on what I have seen of the mailing lists I've administered). These 
days people seem to have no problem getting email accounts with high 
quotas. Storage seems to only get cheaper per volume with time. So I don't 
find storage-related arguments to be convincing. Paying for bandwidth to 
the endpoint also strikes me as a poor argument; people don't seem to 
object to using webmail or mail client protocols which do a good job of 
letting people download the specific set of emails they want to read (IMAP, 
for example, and I think JMAP looks like it will continue in this way).

Taken as a whole, I'm convinced that whatever benefit came from mailing 
list digests has passed and thus support for digested mailing is not worth 
taking on the complexity of "proper" (as you say) implementation or use.

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: “Get rid of digests”

[Lori Nagel via libreplanet-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2510 bytes --]

 I used to read digests cause I got too many emails and was on tons and tons of email lists about various topics of interest.  Now, for a lot of that stuff I just read message forums and don't bother with email.  There is just no way I could keep up with the amount of conversation that goes on in those communities, and that is why they have forums rather than lists.  Lists are really only good for a small group of people that are frequently writing to each other. I'll be honest, a lot of my email is opt in marketing email or coordinating in person events with friends and groups I am involved with. (cause I for one don't answer phone messages, too much spam on the phone these days.)  

    On Saturday, November 2, 2019, 12:10:42 PM EDT, J.B. Nicholson <jbn@forestfield.org> wrote:  
 
 Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
> Is there something wrong with them per se?  Except, that most of the
> people have no clue how to use them properly, I mean.

I find that most MUAs don't handle digests well and this creates needless 
thread breaking. I don't blame the software mishandling on the user. 
Digests also lead to followup posts with excessive quoted material from 
people who don't edit out the superfluous text. That I do blame on the 
user, as they could take time to edit that out, but I also blame on digests 
because the digesting (by its nature) gives users so much more text to work 
with.

I don't believe digests have been in high demand for the past decade or so 
(based on what I have seen of the mailing lists I've administered). These 
days people seem to have no problem getting email accounts with high 
quotas. Storage seems to only get cheaper per volume with time. So I don't 
find storage-related arguments to be convincing. Paying for bandwidth to 
the endpoint also strikes me as a poor argument; people don't seem to 
object to using webmail or mail client protocols which do a good job of 
letting people download the specific set of emails they want to read (IMAP, 
for example, and I think JMAP looks like it will continue in this way).

Taken as a whole, I'm convinced that whatever benefit came from mailing 
list digests has passed and thus support for digested mailing is not worth 
taking on the complexity of "proper" (as you say) implementation or use.

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss  

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 2723 bytes --]

   I used to read digests cause I got too many emails and was on tons and
   tons of email lists about various topics of interest.  Now, for a lot
   of that stuff I just read message forums and don't bother with email.
   There is just no way I could keep up with the amount of conversation
   that goes on in those communities, and that is why they have forums
   rather than lists.  Lists are really only good for a small group of
   people that are frequently writing to each other. I'll be honest, a lot
   of my email is opt in marketing email or coordinating in person events
   with friends and groups I am involved with. (cause I for one don't
   answer phone messages, too much spam on the phone these days.)

   On Saturday, November 2, 2019, 12:10:42 PM EDT, J.B. Nicholson
   <jbn@forestfield.org> wrote:
   Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
   > Is there something wrong with them per se?  Except, that most of the
   > people have no clue how to use them properly, I mean.
   I find that most MUAs don't handle digests well and this creates
   needless
   thread breaking. I don't blame the software mishandling on the user.
   Digests also lead to followup posts with excessive quoted material from
   people who don't edit out the superfluous text. That I do blame on the
   user, as they could take time to edit that out, but I also blame on
   digests
   because the digesting (by its nature) gives users so much more text to
   work
   with.
   I don't believe digests have been in high demand for the past decade or
   so
   (based on what I have seen of the mailing lists I've administered).
   These
   days people seem to have no problem getting email accounts with high
   quotas. Storage seems to only get cheaper per volume with time. So I
   don't
   find storage-related arguments to be convincing. Paying for bandwidth
   to
   the endpoint also strikes me as a poor argument; people don't seem to
   object to using webmail or mail client protocols which do a good job of
   letting people download the specific set of emails they want to read
   (IMAP,
   for example, and I think JMAP looks like it will continue in this way).
   Taken as a whole, I'm convinced that whatever benefit came from mailing
   list digests has passed and thus support for digested mailing is not
   worth
   taking on the complexity of "proper" (as you say) implementation or
   use.
   _______________________________________________
   libreplanet-discuss mailing list
   [1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   [2]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

References

   1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   2. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: “Get rid of digests”

[J.B. Nicholson]

Lori Nagel via libreplanet-discuss wrote:
> I used to read digests cause I got too many emails and was on tons and 
> tons of email lists about various topics of interest.
You could have chosen to use the filtering capability found in any modern 
email client to sort emails into folders. That approach would automatically 
keep threads organized, let you quickly identify what's active, where to 
focus your attention, and let you do things like mark threads as read when 
that thread became uninteresting (or simply ignore the thread). Then mark 
everything in the folder read to 'catch up' on all of those messages. 
Server-side filtering would let you do this organization into folders as 
well; server-side filtering is particularly handy if you read your email 
account from multiple MUAs. With this approach the number of emails becomes 
a non-issue; you stop reading when you want to knowing the rest of what you 
didn't read is still there in a well-organized and easily accessible 
fashion. The point being that I've not seen such support in MUAs or 
server-side filtering for digests and you can make choices that won't cause 
you to think that it's a burden to handle "tons and tons" of emails.

> Now, for a lot of that stuff I just read message forums and don't bother
> with email.
Which means you're allowing each forum owner to change what people write at 
any time (even well after their post was made), block messages from being 
seen by you, and generally give forum owners a much greater amount of time 
to exert censorious control over what you're allowed to read and when. I 
don't prefer that tradeoff.

> There is just no way I could keep up with the amount of conversation 
> that goes on in those communities, and that is why they have forums 
> rather than lists.
I can think of reasons some prefer web forums over mailing lists, none of 
which have anything to do with the amount of conversation: some people 
don't really want the administration of hosting any service so they 
outsource that job to a web forum by hosting their discussion to Reddit, 
Facebook, or some other system they don't administer. One thread (perhaps 
it was on this mailing list) encouraged the FSF to adopt a Discuss-driven 
web forum on the basis that it was more liked by (the inchoately described) 
young people. No evidence was given to back up that claim but the claim had 
nothing to do with the amount of conversation.

> Lists are really only good for a small group of people that are
> frequently writing to each other.
My experiences with mailing lists involving hundreds of people tells me 
otherwise.

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: “Get rid of digests”

[Arthur Torrey]

Flip side - I have 90% or more of the email lists I'm on set to digest mode...  If I can't set a given list to digest, and it sends me more than 1-2 messages a day I am very likely to drop it...

Granted I'm an old fart by some standards - I started computing back in the days of the Boston Computer Society (RIP) and BBS's were the communication channels of choice for anyone not in the University/Military/Industrial complex... (because there were NO public ISP's) My initial Internet experiences involved Gopher and WAIS via world.std.com and a UUPC account via Pioneer Village....

I learned about trimming back when people got flamed, if not banned outright for not trimming....  I am seriously annoyed by people that don't trim, (and give the feeble excuse that their Zombie-phone makes it difficult...) but I can always scroll past that crap fairly fast...

But I have no interest in constantly maintaining filters or other such things - and already get to many individual email's a day, so digests are a REQUIREMENT as far as I'm concerned...

Dump the digests and I will drop this list, which is one of the ones I usually find less useful anyway...

ART

------------------
Arthur Torrey - <arthur_torrey@comcast.net>
-------------------

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss