Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all

[Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com>]

Deb, when you say something like:

> "Gregor could've saved us all a ton of time and just said that he
    doesn't care if women, or really anyone who would rather not be
    bullied, participates in free software."

It should be very obvious that many of us do not agree that that
is even in the vicinity of the ballpark of what is going on.
We disagree on that point.

All that is going on now, is fancy ways of going:

   "No way"
   "Yes way"
   "Na huh"
   "No really"
   "Bullshit"
   "Truth"

etc.

Can we put that on hold indefinitely now?  Thanks.

Maybe you could fire off one more round of personal insults
and then drop it?

-t



On 2021-04-15 13:02, Deb Nicholson wrote:
> Gregor could've saved us all a ton of time and just said that he
>    doesn't care if women, or really anyone who would rather not be
>    bullied, participates in free software.
> 
>    On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 3:41 PM Danny Spitzberg
>    <[1]stationaery@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>    On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 12:25 PM gregor 
> <[2]podrzaj.gregor@gmail.com>
>    wrote:
> 
>         hi Deb, all.
>         hope you bear with me and my thinking. here goes:
>         i feel that dumbing down the peoples of usa worked. well, the
>      same
>         seems to be the case in my country, with maybe a couple of
>      decades of a
>         lag.
>         reading the reasoning of Deb, i feel like being from another
>      planet.
>         if 30 years ago, someone told me something like this would
>      happen, i
>         would bet my arm that it wouldn't.
>         your usa world is now made of feelings, all under the banner of
>         freedom, a type of freedom that only some are the arbiters of.
> 
>         the others are victims of this arbitrary interpretations
> 
>    Gregor, makes this interpretation arbitrary?
> 
>      of how to
>         conduct social interactions (still all based on feelings, no 
> need
>      for
>         critical thinking, let alone search for the truth, which the
>      ancients
>         called wisdom)
>         those same feelings you newer show when bombing some foreign
>      country.
>         now it feels like your nation is last to be devoured by that 
> same
>         force. in so hideous a way, not even mengele would come up 
> with.
>      (and
>         also has to do with divide and conquer, if we would only see it
>      as
>         such, "struggle" wouldn't be futile)
>         let me walk trough your letter Deb
>         On 15. 04. 21 18:13, Deb Nicholson wrote:
>         Hi,
>         As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours
>      running
>         FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a
>      half
>         dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about 
> RMS
>         treating them differently,
>         differently? as oppose to what? samely?
>       hitting on them at a conference,
>         oh no, a man must not hit on a woman ( maybe you mean unless 
> she
>         approves of it?) how does that work?
>       loudly
>         interrupting a young person's talk
>         only young?, so he seems to be a bigot of some sorts. ok,
>      interupting
>         someone's talk. yes, seems rude. of the few videos i watched 
> dr.
>      RMS,
>         and the way i see his stainless steel logic, if he yelled at 
> me,
>      i
>         would be honored and would most likely have to revisit my
>      position for
>         which i was yelled at. but if i could prove my position i am 
> sure
>      he
>         would go revisiting his.
>       or involving them in a mortifying
>         public joke about virginity.
>         mortifying joke, oh now now, don't you go cry, its called a
>      killing
>         joke, once you hear it you die
>       In particular, I have had several young
>         women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet
>      because
>         RMS might yell at me."
>         hmm. so fragile these new ones. yell back! then both have a 
> smile
>      and a
>         cheer fills the room.
>         Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or
>      girlfriend to
>         these events because the last time they did RMS or other free
>      software
>         representatives were awful to them.
>         were awful to them? this sure sounds a strange claim, so they
>      were
>         awful to new faces, specially women, whereas to their male
>      spouses
>         everything was normal (except of course their wifes girlfriends
>         feelings, those weren't normal.) i just can not wrap my head
>      around
>         what has happened to educated people of usa. to me it seems 
> like
>      those
>         couples should divorce if such a disharmony in understanding of
>      the
>         world is between them. i just don't get it. maybe it was like a
>      mans
>         club, where women are ridiculed. hmm. in that case you got a 
> huge
>         point, no doubt. As i recall, dr. RMS is a champion of neutral
>      pronoun
>         which is not sexist at all
>       Having a leader who inspires others
>         to treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a
>      net
>         positive for the free software movement.
>         contempt is a very strong word. your demands for the world to 
> be
>      the
>         way you want it to be, is actually not net positive for the 
> whole
>         world. it lacks the basic logic, you seem to not notice you
>      constantly
>         argue against your own principle.
>         Perhaps it would not surprise you to hear that almost none of 
> the
>         people who've had these interactions with RMS or his
>      representatives
>         choose to donate to the FSF or support it through their 
> volunteer
>      time?
>         truth shall prevail. meanwhile bombs are still killing the
>      innocent ...
>         ever, ever, ever much?
>         I'm not surprised that the people who are left at the FSF 
> mostly
>      still
>         support him. What's sad is that the free software movement 
> should
>      be
>         much, much bigger and it won't be able to grow if it is only
>      accepting
>         people who don't mind harassment, bullying and belittlement.
>         in all your posts you have managed to belittle yourself in my
>      eyes
>         completely. mind you, couldn't it be argued that dr. RMS is
>      harassed
>         and bullied? one could even naively ask by whom? (wink wink)
>       We should
>         be able to work on free software without that gate.
>         i can not see the connection between "promote computer user
>      freedom"
>         e.g. free software project and a gate. what gate does dr. RMS
>      present
>         to you that inhibits your work for the computer user freedom?
>         You mentioned that a public letter is a hostile act. I 
> understand
>      that
>         it feels that way to you. Collectively the signers of that 
> letter
>      have
>         spent many, many hours trying to "call in" or improve free
>      software
>         *with RMS.* He hasn't listened.
>         could it be he listened but didn't react the way you wanted?
>       It's completely false to draw a
>         parallel between that action and acting rudely to complete
>      strangers at
>         an event where the primary goal should be bringing in new free
>      software
>         supporters.
>         would need to see some examples finally of this rudeness you 
> keep
>         referring to. try finding ones that weren't provoked so as not 
> to
>      waste
>         more time with a straw man. (down below you used open hardware,
>      is the
>         perfect example where one could scream: not open, free/libre -
>      after so
>         many years in the movement you still spread propaganda mixing
>      free and
>         open)
>         RMS did come up with free software and many tools for achieving
>      it and
>         that is great, vital, visionary work. He did not invent the
>      struggle
>         for freedom though.
>         the freedom you are fighting for here is known in my world as
>         "political correctness". see, its political. FSF is not a
>      political
>         platform, find another platform for (in my opinion highjacked,
>      using
>         grassroots and perverting it for some agenda unbeknown to me)
>      movement
>         of political correctness.
>         i stand strongly on my political views, but see, they are not
>      important
>         for FSF, i mean: for the part where they intersect they are the
>      same,
>         where they don't intersect i won't bother pushing my flat earth
>      theory
>         on FSF... was a parable, am actually still a globe-er :),  
> ohoho
>      and by
>         the way, planet is not a correct term, since etimologically it
>      means
>         plane not globe, so lets all start calling the planet globet)
>       And there are many aspects of even computer freedom
>         that the FSF does not work on; some of the EFF's work against
>         persistent surveillance, campaigns to popularize Open Hardware,
>         here you go, this is the point i see myself yelling also
>       pushing
>         for reform of EULAs and TOS agreements, resisting the use of
>      algorithms
>         that reinforce racism and sexism in job opportunities or the
>      criminal
>         justice system or pushing to be able to work on things like
>      drones or
>         amateur rockets without being labeled as criminals.
>         for some of those you should make your own foundation. some 
> could
>      find
>         a sweet spot in FSF projects. also with some i disagree -
>      technology is
>         not bad per se, it's the use of it that can be bad.
>      The struggle for
>         freedom has to be more than one person and more than one
>      organization.
>         exactly. why highjack dr. RMS and FSF, when you should make 
> your
>      own,
>         thus making it "more than one organization"??? and you again do
>      some
>         word twisting - struggle for freedom is not what the stated
>      mission of
>         FSF is ("mission to promote computer user freedom.").
>         If the FSF is unwilling to listen to people's concerns, then I
>      fear
>         that it will cease to grow and become irrelevant. I think that
>      would be
>         terrible because software freedom is extremely important and
>      that's why
>         I'm continuing to engage here.
>         hmm, seems to me that by equating people's concerns with your 
> own
>         concerns (or of a group of people) puts you in the position of
>      the
>         arbiter. you like to do that over and over again, i wonder if
>         knowingly?
>         i am sure FSF is willing to listen to all concerns. what they 
> do
>      with
>         them might be different form one concern to other one. and
>      again,
>         different from what you want.
>         Once i wrote a personal letter to dr. RMS, and to my big
>      surprise, i
>         got an answer. me, just a schmuck, i never expected for him to
>      bother
>         with some small talk with just some guy. he took the time. he
>      took the
>         time.
>         Best,
>         Deb
>         On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 4:21 AM Alexandre Oliva
>      [1]<[1][3]lxoliva@fsfla.org>
>         wrote:
>           On Apr 14, 2021, Deb Nicholson
>      [2]<[2][4]deb@eximiousproductions.com>
>           wrote:
>           > It's disappointing that so many people have chosen to
>      disbelieve
>           former FSF
>           > employees, hundreds of women who have encountered RMS at
>           conferences or MIT
>           > and many, many free software creators.
>           That's a real peril, and would have been wise to take into
>      account,
>           before deciding to form a coalition with known liars and
>      attackers,
>           and
>           before resorting to false allegations, exaggerations and
>      distortions
>           to
>           spark an explosive reaction that facts have or would have
>      failed to
>           spark.
>           These decisions have contaminated and shed doubt on the
>      legitimacy
>           of
>           claims advanced by those who joined the coalition, or who
>           opportunistically timed their action to coincide with those 
> of
>      the
>           corporate-funded coalition.  That may be illogical, but it's
>      often a
>           valuable heuristics.  Call it karma if you wish.
>           Now, if there were any true, first-hand accounts of actual
>      sexual
>           harassment, I'd be very interested in getting them straight
>      from the
>           source.  Giving out pleasure cards, politely asking people on
>      dates,
>           keeping foliage or mattresses in work offices, reports of the
>           existence
>           of institutional sexism at universities, advising caution
>      against
>           leaps
>           to unsupported condemnation, tasteless jokes, getting angry 
> and
>           being
>           loud are not it IMHO.  Hearsay about the same half dozen 
> rumors
>      over
>           a
>           period of 40+ years isn't either, unless your own
>      investigations
>           haven't
>           hit a dead end before something concrete popped up.  I
>      encourage you
>           to
>           let the FSF board know if that's the case, and please keep me
>      on
>           copy.
>           > The vast majority of the people who signed the letter 
> asking
>      for
>           RMS
>           > to step down, care deeply about free software.
>           I encourage them (you) to behave as such, instead of
>      associating
>           with
>           historical opponents, and working so hard to divide us.  It's
>      become
>           really hard to believe in that commitment, and in good
>      intentions
>           behind
>           the actions, given the present circumstances.
>           --
>           Alexandre Oliva, happy hacker
>      [3][3][5]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
>              Free Software Activist         GNU Toolchain Engineer
>                   Vim, Vi, Voltei pro Emacs -- GNUlius Caesar
>      References
>         1. [4]mailto:[6]lxoliva@fsfla.org
>         2. [5]mailto:[7]deb@eximiousproductions.com
>         3. [6][8]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
>      _______________________________________________
>      libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>      [7][9]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>      
> [8][10]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-di
>      scuss
>         i grew up in a socialist country (oh, did i mention that usa
>      bombed it,
>         yes) and what i am seeing now in the west reminds me of the
>      brainwash
>         propaganda i grew up in 40 odd years back. and yes, is totally
>      wrong
>         and always makes me a bit angry when westerners say a communist
>         country, it shows the lack of knowledge. all them (us) commies
>      were
>         socialist countries, please be politically correct when you 
> call
>      them.
>         also china today is not and never was communist, it is 
> socialist.
>      read
>         up, educate, and be correct.
>         also so many times i hear americans this americans that. so
>      politically
>         incorrect, when referring to citizens of usa and calling them
>         americans, you "insult" all central and south americans and
>      canadians.
>         please be politically correct.
>         etc.
>         if you caught my point, there is not always the need to be
>      politically
>         correct, if the exchange of information was correct and no 
> party
>      of
>         exchange was insulted, then the strict semantic can loosen up.
>      but if
>         you keep being insulted by this, that and my uncle, well then 
> you
>      might
>         be quite a bigot (for the many times you've insulted south
>      americans,
>         and a billion and a half socialist chinese people, etc)
>         Notice also that i began the letter with an emotionally charged
>         personal views/feelings, just as you did, again to show you the
>      mirror.
>         So, as i began with quite an emotional tone, let me finish with
>      an
>         apology. We, the people should stand united in our differences
>      and
>         should try understanding each other and even when we don't, we
>         shouldn't impose ways of behavior on others (of course, all
>      within roza
>         luxembourg maxim). is not really that hard, even if my reply
>      doesn't
>         show it much. So i hope you can accept my apologies for being
>      blunt and
>         a bit rude (when i grew up, back then, that kind of exchange
>      wasn't
>         necessarily being seen as rude at all)
>         I hope, truly sincerely hope that one day, we (you and me and
>      all) will
>         no longer fight where fight isn't due. and class struggle 
> becomes
>      one
>         class struggle, all class struggle. it feels even, that once 
> not
>         divided, victory is here.
>         i salute you all from once socialist country
>         g
>      References
>         1. mailto:[1][11]lxoliva@fsfla.org
>         2. mailto:[2][12]deb@eximiousproductions.com
>         3. [13]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
>         4. mailto:[14]lxoliva@fsfla.org
>         5. mailto:[15]deb@eximiousproductions.com
>         6. [16]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
>         7. mailto:[17]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>         8.
>      
> [18]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
>      ss
>      _______________________________________________
>      libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>      [19]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>      
> [20]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
>      ss
> 
> References
> 
>    1. mailto:stationaery@gmail.com
>    2. mailto:podrzaj.gregor@gmail.com
>    3. mailto:lxoliva@fsfla.org
>    4. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
>    5. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
>    6. mailto:lxoliva@fsfla.org
>    7. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
>    8. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
>    9. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>   10. 
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>   11. mailto:lxoliva@fsfla.org
>   12. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
>   13. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
>   14. mailto:lxoliva@fsfla.org
>   15. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
>   16. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
>   17. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>   18. 
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>   19. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>   20. 
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss