Free License Oriented Programming

Free License Oriented Programming

[Yasuaki Kudo]

Hi,

So I have been thinking for a long time how to change the tide and make the workplace democracy (one worker one vote and zero shareholder votes, or worker cooperatives) more of the norm rather than exception, as well as how to start one 😅

In that vein, I thought about the sort of market in which workplace democracy really has the natural competitive advantage, rather than just having nicer administration and relationships among the workers?

I wonder if this is a viable idea - we set up a software worker cooperative whose business model is to divide the customers' problems into pieces of free software with multiple aims:

* Lower the cost of maintenance by relying as much as possible on 'free lunch' provided the by the free software.
* Prevent the internal cottage industry within large enterprises that require huge IT budgets due to all systems being custom made for the organization and there is not enough exposure or critical analysis
* Create better public relations by making contributions to Free Software as necessary.
* Effective documentation that is verified by the community open to any new comer
* Ensure relevant workers can be found and hired when needed
* and so on


The worker cooperatives, with its democratic cultures will fit naturally to the Free Software community and they can help closed private (capitalist) enterprises so they can decompose their software requirements to pieces of Free Software, stitch them together to have the real corporate systems.


To be more concrete, say a bank has proprietary risk evaluation systems that cost a lot of money for them to maintain.   What part of the system do they really want to maintain and what part of is just commodity trucking of information (ETL) that they only regard as cost of doing business.   Can we break it up into pieces of Free Software and reduce the problem into the integration of the software as the enterprises see fit?

I wonder what your thoughts are 😄

Cheers,
Yasu


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Re: Free License Oriented Programming

[Yasuaki Kudo]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 8366 bytes --]

Yes, your skepticism is well established, and I would like to reference this short video:

* Astra Taylor asks Philosopher Cornel West on Real Democracy!
https://youtu.be/aYVtmx6vSfQ

But I would like to think that going against the flow and adopting democracy has similarities to moving away from proprietary to free software!

Another way of putting it is the word 'empowerment'.   Free Software, Democracy, and I would add others like Education and Human Rights, all empower the individuals so they can authorize themselves to do what they need to do and not seek for anyone's permission.

Sorry need to go to sleep soon but thank you for your many good points and let's keep talking!

-Yasu

PS
I recently did volunteer  Japanese CC translation of:

Capitalism Will End. What Is A Better System? - Economic Update with Richard Wolff
https://youtu.be/OfOI9TlZ8_U

> On Apr 26, 2022, at 19:41, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> 
> * Yasuaki Kudo <yasu@yasuaki.com> [2022-04-25 12:59]:
>> So I have been thinking for a long time how to change the tide and
>> make the workplace democracy (one worker one vote and zero
>> shareholder votes, or worker cooperatives) more of the norm rather
>> than exception, as well as how to start one 😅
> 
> It sounds you think democracy is solution to group management.
> 
> For management of anything one need management skills. Those are
> various, could be analytical skills, implementation skills,
> relationships, and many other issues.
> 
> The knowledge and practical competency for management does not stem
> from simple membership in a group.
> 
> Thus it is impossible that all the members in the group have
> analytical skills to decide on how and what to do in that group.
> 
> Before deciding about democracy for the group you better review why at
> all did you decide that democracy is good for any group?
> 
> Do you think there was EVER democracy in this world? There was never,
> not even in the ancient Greece, where they have included only
> "citizens" and not those living in the city, but citizens were
> qualified by different criteria. Additionally, they did not include
> women. 
> 
> Democracy was never. It is not today, it will never be.
> 
> Let us not live in delusions.
> 
> The term "democracy" is used by various oppressive powers to blame
> other countries and gain control over them. Like the USA for example.
> 
> One worker -- one vote -- simply does not work and will never work
> well. It is the best way to ruin every organization. It will lead to
> corruption. 
> 
> People are not equal. Their skills and education are not equal. Thus
> not every worker can know about management and decisions that are
> optimum for survival of the group.
> 
> If that would be so, then people would not attend financial courses to
> become qualified to deal with money.
> 
> Management is everything. Even a cleaner is manager, managing
> resources for cleaning of the building, and managing dirt.
> 
> We all manage something. And highest managers are highest
> servants. They have to serve all the people under them with resources,
> education, guidance, so that organization performs well.
> 
> Let us put aside those common viewpoints how managers are "bosses" and
> those under them need to listen to their advices and orders, even if
> bad. That is wrong viewpoint and wrong setup.
> 
> All people in one organization serve each other. Managers who are good
> will be most efficient and serving most people at once.
> 
> Now back to management issues as related to democracy: I don't think
> democracy is the goal and that it should be kept as ultimate
> principle.
> 
> Imagine a group of farmers who are supposed to bring best decisions
> how to divide the moneys from cooperative association. 
> 
> Now majority of those farmers, who are frankly stupid for management
> purposes, could say, let us have that money that we buy for each of us
> cow, and we will have our milk and we will be happy, this way each of
> us benefits. Maybe this could be majority like 90% of them.
> 
> And maybe 10% of them would say that it is better to purchase tractor
> so that each of farmers can faster farm and get more food. This would
> be more beneficial and more worth than just a cow.
> 
> Now let the stupid majority decide it for everybody and destroy their
> group endeavors on long term.
> 
> And that is democracy.
> 
> Don't you see that the world of democracy is not functioning?
> 
>> In that vein, I thought about the sort of market in which workplace
>> democracy really has the natural competitive advantage, rather than
>> just having nicer administration and relationships among the
>> workers?
> 
> It is illusion.
> 
> But what you could do -- you could mix meritocracy with democracy.
> 
> 1. Make an articles of organization so that people must have completed
>   specific skills in order to be in the specific group within larger
>   group. For example, group of farmers digging cannot be same group
>   as farmers controlling tractor as later have skills how to drive
>   tractor. 
> 
> 2. Enable democracy within a group, as people who have equal skills
>   and education, may better analyze what is best decision as related
>   to their subject.
> 
>> * Lower the cost of maintenance by relying as much as possible on
>> * 'free lunch' provided the by the free software.
> 
> I can't understand above. I do not see anything economically viable.
> 
>> The worker cooperatives, with its democratic cultures will fit
>> naturally to the Free Software community and they can help closed
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> Free Software Philosophy is not and was not democratic decision. Haven
> thanks it was not. 
> 
> Democratic opinions are also not guided by people, but by individuals
> paying for opinions to intrude into minds of people. Thus anything
> democratic is most probably not democratic.
> 
> Democratic culture does not exist in free software community. I do not
> see it as necessary.
> 
> Let me give you example: on this mailing list we have a moderator. I
> do not think moderator is really skilled, but I trust moderator with
> good intentions and I don't take it so bad when moderator, according
> to my opinion, does few mistakes. However -- that is not
> democratically elected moderator. Did you as member of the mailing
> list elect that moderator? No? So where is democracy?
> 
> Linux kernel was not managed democratically, but we can say socially
> and by contributions are accepted rather by meritocracy, than
> democracy. 
> 
> And all software projects have their leaders. Leaders usually started
> the project. You join if you wish, but you can't do mostly nothing if
> you wish to change project to something else what leaders don't
> want. They may listen to you, maybe not. But people can't change
> decisions of software project leaders if they are majority.
> 
> Some groups may decide to use democracy, but really it is not common
> in free software.
> 
> Just because some term like "democracy" is often promoted on TV, it
> does not mean it has its validity in all areas of life. It does not.
> 
> Like they say on this Princeton University's page, democracy is one of
> most cherished ideas...
> 
> Against Democracy | Princeton University Press
> https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691162607/against-democracy
> 
> 10 Reasons Why Democracy Doesn’t Work - Listverse
> https://listverse.com/2013/06/16/10-reasons-why-democracy-doesnt-work/
> 
>> To be more concrete, say a bank has proprietary risk evaluation
>> systems that cost a lot of money for them to maintain.   What part
>> of the system do they really want to maintain and what part of is
>> just commodity trucking of information (ETL) that they only regard
>> as cost of doing business.   Can we break it up into pieces of Free
>> Software and reduce the problem into the integration of the software
>> as the enterprises see fit?
> 
> That is definitely good idea, but it wasn't democratically invented.
> 
> Jean
> 
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
> 
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 8344 bytes --]

   Yes, your skepticism is well established, and I would like to reference
   this short video:

   * Astra Taylor asks Philosopher Cornel West on Real Democracy!

   [1]https://youtu.be/aYVtmx6vSfQ

   But I would like to think that going against the flow and adopting
   democracy has similarities to moving away from proprietary to free
   software!

   Another way of putting it is the word 'empowerment'.   Free Software,
   Democracy, and I would add others like Education and Human Rights, all
   empower the individuals so they can authorize themselves to do what
   they need to do and not seek for anyone's permission.

   Sorry need to go to sleep soon but thank you for your many good points
   and let's keep talking!

   -Yasu

   PS

   I recently did volunteer  Japanese CC translation of:

   Capitalism Will End. What Is A Better System? - Economic Update with
   Richard Wolff

   [2]https://youtu.be/OfOI9TlZ8_U

     On Apr 26, 2022, at 19:41, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:

   * Yasuaki Kudo <yasu@yasuaki.com> [2022-04-25 12:59]:

     So I have been thinking for a long time how to change the tide and

     make the workplace democracy (one worker one vote and zero

     shareholder votes, or worker cooperatives) more of the norm rather

     than exception, as well as how to start one 😅

   It sounds you think democracy is solution to group management.
   For management of anything one need management skills. Those are
   various, could be analytical skills, implementation skills,
   relationships, and many other issues.
   The knowledge and practical competency for management does not stem
   from simple membership in a group.
   Thus it is impossible that all the members in the group have
   analytical skills to decide on how and what to do in that group.
   Before deciding about democracy for the group you better review why at
   all did you decide that democracy is good for any group?
   Do you think there was EVER democracy in this world? There was never,
   not even in the ancient Greece, where they have included only
   "citizens" and not those living in the city, but citizens were
   qualified by different criteria. Additionally, they did not include
   women.
   Democracy was never. It is not today, it will never be.
   Let us not live in delusions.
   The term "democracy" is used by various oppressive powers to blame
   other countries and gain control over them. Like the USA for example.
   One worker -- one vote -- simply does not work and will never work
   well. It is the best way to ruin every organization. It will lead to
   corruption.
   People are not equal. Their skills and education are not equal. Thus
   not every worker can know about management and decisions that are
   optimum for survival of the group.
   If that would be so, then people would not attend financial courses to
   become qualified to deal with money.
   Management is everything. Even a cleaner is manager, managing
   resources for cleaning of the building, and managing dirt.
   We all manage something. And highest managers are highest
   servants. They have to serve all the people under them with resources,
   education, guidance, so that organization performs well.
   Let us put aside those common viewpoints how managers are "bosses" and
   those under them need to listen to their advices and orders, even if
   bad. That is wrong viewpoint and wrong setup.
   All people in one organization serve each other. Managers who are good
   will be most efficient and serving most people at once.
   Now back to management issues as related to democracy: I don't think
   democracy is the goal and that it should be kept as ultimate
   principle.
   Imagine a group of farmers who are supposed to bring best decisions
   how to divide the moneys from cooperative association.
   Now majority of those farmers, who are frankly stupid for management
   purposes, could say, let us have that money that we buy for each of us
   cow, and we will have our milk and we will be happy, this way each of
   us benefits. Maybe this could be majority like 90% of them.
   And maybe 10% of them would say that it is better to purchase tractor
   so that each of farmers can faster farm and get more food. This would
   be more beneficial and more worth than just a cow.
   Now let the stupid majority decide it for everybody and destroy their
   group endeavors on long term.
   And that is democracy.
   Don't you see that the world of democracy is not functioning?

     In that vein, I thought about the sort of market in which workplace

     democracy really has the natural competitive advantage, rather than

     just having nicer administration and relationships among the

     workers?

   It is illusion.
   But what you could do -- you could mix meritocracy with democracy.
   1. Make an articles of organization so that people must have completed
     specific skills in order to be in the specific group within larger
     group. For example, group of farmers digging cannot be same group
     as farmers controlling tractor as later have skills how to drive
     tractor.
   2. Enable democracy within a group, as people who have equal skills
     and education, may better analyze what is best decision as related
     to their subject.

     * Lower the cost of maintenance by relying as much as possible on

     * 'free lunch' provided the by the free software.

   I can't understand above. I do not see anything economically viable.

     The worker cooperatives, with its democratic cultures will fit

     naturally to the Free Software community and they can help closed

   I don't think so.
   Free Software Philosophy is not and was not democratic decision. Haven
   thanks it was not.
   Democratic opinions are also not guided by people, but by individuals
   paying for opinions to intrude into minds of people. Thus anything
   democratic is most probably not democratic.
   Democratic culture does not exist in free software community. I do not
   see it as necessary.
   Let me give you example: on this mailing list we have a moderator. I
   do not think moderator is really skilled, but I trust moderator with
   good intentions and I don't take it so bad when moderator, according
   to my opinion, does few mistakes. However -- that is not
   democratically elected moderator. Did you as member of the mailing
   list elect that moderator? No? So where is democracy?
   Linux kernel was not managed democratically, but we can say socially
   and by contributions are accepted rather by meritocracy, than
   democracy.
   And all software projects have their leaders. Leaders usually started
   the project. You join if you wish, but you can't do mostly nothing if
   you wish to change project to something else what leaders don't
   want. They may listen to you, maybe not. But people can't change
   decisions of software project leaders if they are majority.
   Some groups may decide to use democracy, but really it is not common
   in free software.
   Just because some term like "democracy" is often promoted on TV, it
   does not mean it has its validity in all areas of life. It does not.
   Like they say on this Princeton University's page, democracy is one of
   most cherished ideas...
   Against Democracy | Princeton University Press
   https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691162607/against-democ
   racy
   10 Reasons Why Democracy Doesn’t Work - Listverse
   https://listverse.com/2013/06/16/10-reasons-why-democracy-doesnt-work/

     To be more concrete, say a bank has proprietary risk evaluation

     systems that cost a lot of money for them to maintain.   What part

     of the system do they really want to maintain and what part of is

     just commodity trucking of information (ETL) that they only regard

     as cost of doing business.   Can we break it up into pieces of Free

     Software and reduce the problem into the integration of the software

     as the enterprises see fit?

   That is definitely good idea, but it wasn't democratically invented.
   Jean
   Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
   https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
   In support of Richard M. Stallman
   https://stallmansupport.org/

References

   1. https://youtu.be/aYVtmx6vSfQ
   2. https://youtu.be/OfOI9TlZ8_U

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