From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on dcvr.yhbt.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-ASN: AS22989 209.51.188.0/24 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.9 required=3.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,DKIM_INVALID, DKIM_SIGNED,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2, SPF_HELO_PASS,SPF_PASS shortcircuit=no autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by dcvr.yhbt.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E52D51F8C6 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 2021 07:11:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:35996 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mCGUY-00065Q-MJ for e@80x24.org; Sat, 07 Aug 2021 03:11:34 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44662) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mCGUE-000651-Fq for libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org; Sat, 07 Aug 2021 03:11:14 -0400 Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([178.21.23.139]:33804) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mCGUC-0001fx-5t for libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org; Sat, 07 Aug 2021 03:11:14 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by disroot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651DC54668 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 2021 09:11:10 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at disroot.org Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (disroot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QYDP0juXXIQV for ; Sat, 7 Aug 2021 09:11:08 +0200 (CEST) To: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=disroot.org; s=mail; t=1628320268; bh=vV6MNdP8k78e88LrvMjovMCH9WbeU7Awe5Tq3YRP+QY=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Xipffij87KXVNrtYw3CJ5EbVDj+DWLx4Hogtic2/F62HwttV+npth9ibDShkpw3RT WPeMtEVJ+jl6XoePrjtQna35DyKedhE0ZoUp6f2VLWzANIGmyByZFllA8nwZRcO4zP 1oEIRkFZUAvyy7T3iBVpW8jtCn5j4xmNbeQOVUuhBgd6pRIaxm+jxGsUM1aBvcGyY1 RchB+6Rb2O5eApRqM197WVBGjulxVD6eImP6LYWCgCZdR4tUHVhGVgvy0oAnmWKNaC HA54mUs7GLpxnEP86kxIg8h/YQbDkEzJGk53Nw7rYNg4KeVdukx0VC//4fi/VuLwVc tYvMxOhyzB90A== References: <87lf5gyehm.fsf@disroot.org> Subject: Re: Is Telegram or Signal acceptable for harm reduction? Message-ID: <06e8e52d-9d17-e6fe-0021-77618be32168@disroot.org> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 08:11:07 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87lf5gyehm.fsf@disroot.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=178.21.23.139; envelope-from=paulsutton@disroot.org; helo=knopi.disroot.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , From: Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss Reply-To: Paul Sutton Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1007550708081380519==" Errors-To: libreplanet-discuss-bounces+e=80x24.org@libreplanet.org Sender: "libreplanet-discuss" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --===============1007550708081380519== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7ymt8wUCpNBDaLGZ0bY4Ai5qMfPfZ79w0" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --7ymt8wUCpNBDaLGZ0bY4Ai5qMfPfZ79w0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="p9R4sGDnVLm0m7OBs2t5cFm6LplMAqX2f"; protected-headers="v1" From: Paul Sutton To: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org Message-ID: <06e8e52d-9d17-e6fe-0021-77618be32168@disroot.org> Subject: Re: Is Telegram or Signal acceptable for harm reduction? References: <87lf5gyehm.fsf@disroot.org> In-Reply-To: <87lf5gyehm.fsf@disroot.org> --p9R4sGDnVLm0m7OBs2t5cFm6LplMAqX2f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 05/08/2021 00:30, Jorge P. de Morais Neto via libreplanet-discuss wrot= e: > Hi. Sometime ago I submit to a proprietary instant messenger for a wor= k > chat room. I want to get rid of it ASAP. >=20 > As I had it installed and active on my smartphone (for the work room), = I > ended up joining three other chat rooms about civil service public > exams. These three are big, so I have no hope of convincing everyone t= o > switch to an ethical network. I then intend to join these rooms from m= y > wife=E2=80=99s account, on her smartphone, which I would consult weekly= for new > chat messages=C2=B9. The other room (the work one) has only seven memb= ers > (including me), so I hope to convince them to switch to a better > platform. If they don=E2=80=99t want to switch, then I=E2=80=99ll ask = them to forward > me the rare important messages via an ethical technology like SMS or > e-mail. >=20 > Now, what if my six work colleagues accept switching to another chat > network but refuse both XMPP and Matrix because "no one uses that", > accepting only Telegram or Signal? I do currently have Telegram and > Signal accounts, but I worry about their ethics. I can't comment on Telegram In terms of the "no one uses that" argument. I believe the main comms=20 channel for FOSDEM 2021 was Matrix, If we can get figures on that, we=20 can do the same for other large online events and help to counter argue=20 that statement. If there is just a small group, does it matter if no one else uses it?=20 As long as all members of your small group use it. "No one uses it" is becoming more and more of an outdated excuse. Not=20 your fault but good examples + figures (seems obligatory in the business = world) would help counter. What about using Jitsi for meetings, you can use video or voice chat or = is this a messaging application. Going back to no one uses it, isn't XMPP the same protocol that=20 WhatsApp uses? Again Jitsi has been used for big conferences such as=20 LibrePlanet, EmacsConf and others. Paul >=20 > Telegram /does/ have free clients on GNU Guix and PureOS repositories, > which is great, but it is a centralized network, the server code is > hidden, and it doesn=E2=80=99t even have end-to-end encryption! So is = it a real > improvement over the fully proprietary---but allegedly end-to-end > encrypted---status quo? >=20 > What about Signal? Compared to Telegram, it has the big advantage of > end-to-end encryption, but the disadvantage of obstructing the > distribution of modified versions of its client; it is not even > available on F-Droid, Guix or Debian (let alone PureOS). >=20 > So, should I insist on a really ethical network---XMPP or maybe > Matrix---despite the big likelihood that they will refuse, or should I > swallow Telegram or Signal? >=20 > Regards >=20 > =C2=B9 You may wonder what is the point of refusing to use the propriet= ary > application on my smartphone, but still using it on my wife=E2=80=99s > smartphone. It is clearly still not ideal, but it does have significan= t > advantages: >=20 > 1. I would not be discoverable in the network, so people who want to > reach me (outside those three remaining rooms) would send an email = or > SMS instead. > 2. I would be able to delete my account, thus reducing the unethical > network=E2=80=99s market value. > 3. The surveillance AI would be confused with two people using the same= > account. > 4. I would be less tempted to join other rooms in the unethical network= =2E >=20 > Regards >=20 --=20 -- Paul Sutton, Cert Cont Sci (Open) https://personaljournal.ca/paulsutton/ Pronoun : him/his/he OpenPGP : 4350 91C4 C8FB 681B 23A6 7944 8EA9 1B51 E27E 3D99 21st Debian Conference August 22 to August 29, 2021. 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