From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on dcvr.yhbt.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-ASN: AS53758 23.128.96.0/24 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=3.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,MALFORMED_FREEMAIL, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_HELO_PASS,SPF_PASS shortcircuit=no autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by dcvr.yhbt.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4541F8C6 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 14:25:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S233723AbhINO0W (ORCPT ); Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:26:22 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.15]:38345 "EHLO mout.gmx.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S233713AbhINO0V (ORCPT ); Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:26:21 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1631629495; bh=nHAw+Hu1u/DxkyQlvCXTBaCn624BKDOix7cS0mEgsfo=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=hjyd9AjTJpydxj8/AUURQa94Yk2uYjLVF6iGaCO2stRrnTKBQ+/Zzwm0+pqztFzfz L8orEsYmgoRgJFVyBDSnNRmoTyFZq6l++PrftTaec+9BvT+2PchlXiqLBWgwahHhlw ya7ZGfjXb/n6E5++ncHdx6UVcHblyRx5EQKGQZdU= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [172.31.53.103] ([89.1.214.165]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MxUnz-1moXyI12SH-00xosT; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 16:24:55 +0200 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 16:24:53 +0200 (CEST) From: Johannes Schindelin X-X-Sender: virtualbox@gitforwindows.org To: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=86var_Arnfj=C3=B6r=C3=B0_Bjarmason?= cc: Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget , git@vger.kernel.org, Derrick Stolee , Eric Sunshine , Elijah Newren , Bagas Sanjaya Subject: Train station analogy, was Re: [PATCH v3 00/15] [RFC] Upstreaming the Scalar command In-Reply-To: <87mtofnzv1.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <87r1dydp4m.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com> <87ilz44kdk.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com> <87mtofnzv1.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.1 (DEB 209 2017-03-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; BOUNDARY="8323328-1388769937-1631628150=:59" Content-ID: X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:pMTyaqvlwAnJoLacaHEEQU96g16wMnqDP8lji34We6pO+/wXpRy Jc0eu6Sj6IwCdqcirpTM3xYhvMDPLOYm/zJsol+w9xPaBui7+F26cQ97iMa1Xg4Q7OzHdTR +IV1t2zI/M5QenoNj10zto3UNSxIpJSdV0aq/6qmhYZpwxa4p4rpGoXRMsWSw7oQDmVKoHv hz1+vnia6Nc/cKtpWF44Q== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:WMDlXdnOXdo=:oc34l0rcyp6hns3IDDN6zb dWJqYKI6/3evKavkK/UviNi10Feje6pnadb7WkBusvp6yWts3nt75IwXtUXErJrhS/UiptHXA Swg1lUIAAEUTkbcvL1QOeotKQOARC7folywCYKW1c93zF4weZSaHJTCWi7sFlOfPeClmbE13M Hvvde+8HJdhaeN7laztSra5XbGlbCPY1b/j0jb5IRF0zPpDEhmLNv/jMY1lU0hUVwb4SqXM6h ejy5j89zwpcKEc6aiSKHYUSUlO+VufRiNGtvW/L8Pn5b+z+lw2oM0zLxR65KG+FocqfLbdTDC +7P7Qj6EuoZLBWrpD5YtZuckv0zGQuu8+MQ9E6r9u0FGh5JIkrwITRwPPtco0PBf6Tn9WeROV jYepmWxVvU082GO1Sg064kzN8sfFzL5BTXBwPTIXNuw1EcGyS5cgTG83/RA9G9u18wIbOljWF 6ingl4EvDcMfEEvAcW7c0oAPkdQ6OxyI7ZwDCe69VBULgW7lakfvdANZISAw6hCtTPnCMD+RG unrmjci+STgWQ5RZaD/TzI7Vt+JeJV/Z/AvMW+yvnZ21VECi6Pv5h1rKAyMxktPtTJBWzno5x Ik2rJiimwSHWrXo7K/VcWvH8GFJU6xvLJYBeGb8oTOcng9l15uPJhRj9Ni3d5kPUMn/1rnMgo TZmrqEAw3kRFtKJ8HmgJAWv4B8/506+Mrjvhq8YonUbdrHsZQAgLeYZflIIiTq/Fu/7/hFft6 5/f50kTmdDnUhSPv6DT6O2vKWAWgCghWRPfnjiDYDqVpsEqAgvVX9p6MK3WNvWaEktAEjFNQA QdLmVXsI8RXI7X81b/5DuYAoY5ABcxMlpLoCSyPBt9NVCvI0UVaWWbe2+T3sBX5wgm2CEI2aq nC6z25gMi8lVTP8z7hs8An9AI/bNbZm8iWZN/rzc0YVeBNpac+lAItDMkDdf/lFykUBb/O9cj Qf/UNJ54jJcdNylJGO0kLtD3zxbNiBVBU6fvIDYS8zSU5vWvSX9hH7w8v67LjHSt8EX2p+5nI FOm8s6QBi+HR5ZvVP+D6EGNmB1VsInobl9W7ktko+L9S3N6wCVzYlf00+I4ctLa8J8ZW7XgyT 9qmMDumki6lnXo= Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: git@vger.kernel.org This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --8323328-1388769937-1631628150=:59 Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-ID: Hi =C3=86var, On Tue, 14 Sep 2021, =C3=86var Arnfj=C3=B6r=C3=B0 Bjarmason wrote: > On Mon, Sep 13 2021, Johannes Schindelin wrote: > > > On Mon, 13 Sep 2021, =C3=86var Arnfj=C3=B6r=C3=B0 Bjarmason wrote: > > > >> On Thu, Sep 09 2021, =C3=86var Arnfj=C3=B6r=C3=B0 Bjarmason wrote: > >> > >> > In the summary I had on v1->v2 points 1-3 are for v2->v3, > >> > respectively, outstanding, addressed, outstanding: > >> > > >> > https://lore.kernel.org/git/877dfupl7o.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com/ > >> > > >> > In addition the discussion ending here: > >> > https://lore.kernel.org/git/nycvar.QRO.7.76.6.2109082112270.55@tvgs= bejvaqbjf.bet/ > >> > > >> > For that point: I think it's fair enough not to properly handle the > >> > cleanup case in "scalar clone", but perhaps add a note in the > >> > commit message that unlike "git clone" this is known not to clean > >> > after itself properly on ctrl+c? > >> > >> Seeing [1] about the planned re-roll I have the above a shot a few > >> days ago, see the original discussion at [2] (indirectly linked > >> above). > > > > There is a good reason why I did not engage in that tangent about > > deviating from the established `contrib/*/Makefile` paradigm: I find > > it particularly unrelated to what this here patch series is trying to > > accomplish, and I cannot bring myself to be interested in the proposed > > build system changes, either, because I do not see any benefit in the > > changes, only downsides. > > > > I find the distraction unnecessary. > > Perhaps I'm reading too much between the lines here, so forgive any > undue knee-jerk reaction. Okay, let's try an analogy. Imagine that a person is asking for directions to the train station. And the other person is replying by asking "did you know that this train station was built in 1878? It is actually quite interesting a story... [and then goes on to describe the history and what excites them about it]". Now, the first person tries again to ask for directions, again does not get an answer to that question, and is slowly starting to look at their watch. The second person, being completely oblivious to all of this, goes on with their wonderful story about the train station and its cultural heritage. So the first person walks a bit further to ask a third person, but the second person is not done yet and says "but you haven't heard me out! That's disrespectful!". Just imagine for a minute how you would feel if you were the first person. And that is how I feel asking for reviews about the Scalar patch series and then being forcefully dragged into that tangent about the build process. I find the well-established paradigm to keep contrib/'s build procedures as confined to their own directory as possible the most reasonable way to handle the build by virtue of _not_ polluting the top-level Makefile unnecessarily. All of your objections strike me simply as personal viewpoints, not as technical arguments, and they fail to address this "pollution of the top-level Makefile" problem. I therefore strongly disagree with your suggestion that the build system should be changed, I would even argue that your suggestion should been dismissed on purely technical grounds, and I wish you hadn't forced me to say this as forcefully. And even if I looked more favorably on your suggestion to change the build procedure, I find this distraction about the build as little constructive as the explanations about the train station's history above. Those suggestions do succeed in derailing the conversation about how Git could scale better, how Scalar _does_ teach Git how to scale better, and about how to teach Git itself more and more of Scalar's tricks. If you have ideas how to teach, say, `git clone` to perform a couple of Scalar's tricks, by all means, let's hear them, or even better, let's see those patches. If you want to change the build system, still, I cannot stop you from sending patches to that end to the Git mailing list, but please expect me to be uninterested in them in any way, and to prefer to spend my efforts to improve Git elsewhere. If you have other ideas how to improve on Scalar in a user-perceptible way, however, I am all ears again. I hope this clarifies it, without the need to read between the lines, Johannes --8323328-1388769937-1631628150=:59--