From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on dcvr.yhbt.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-ASN: AS31976 209.132.180.0/23 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=3.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI,RP_MATCHES_RCVD shortcircuit=no autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [209.132.180.67]) by dcvr.yhbt.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3589020A2A for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2017 11:55:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1752281AbdI2Lzw (ORCPT ); Fri, 29 Sep 2017 07:55:52 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.22]:63372 "EHLO mout.gmx.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1752092AbdI2Lzv (ORCPT ); Fri, 29 Sep 2017 07:55:51 -0400 Received: from virtualbox ([37.201.193.73]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LiIgB-1dbiRE0lOd-00nT2W; Fri, 29 Sep 2017 13:55:47 +0200 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 13:55:45 +0200 (CEST) From: Johannes Schindelin X-X-Sender: virtualbox@virtualbox To: Jonathan Nieder cc: Junio C Hamano , Lars Schneiider , git@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: What's cooking in git.git (Aug 2017, #05; Tue, 22) In-Reply-To: <20170919160753.GA75068@aiede.mtv.corp.google.com> Message-ID: References: <7D99B245-4D22-4C9C-9C43-C8B8656F8E6D@gmail.com> <20170919160753.GA75068@aiede.mtv.corp.google.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.1 (DEB 209 2017-03-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:GLt4o23V7Gwu06c2e45sMAefo5boIGDTHY4YOVmnh1PdN7bPMNH xCC6nBYmITKGIMLnGD96vSAwyQ2QQ8/JF2ISI2kKIsItsVTRzWJAuYBuLFP9wKVESWB0A7K xGn84PBEHe0NQoKYbBZWvol+hvTmsBivXvcV1MpxKOB9PNJlZ07MLImb81M+MWiNhuSFnYW FoAAsqLaMoCgbA4tQsx4A== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:Jfgr4skuNbw=:JAKEbfHnz7WzriwbAcY1Wi QMoJp5yaFP9hUjSujlIVDh7ZOEV7LEUNMjvHqnzv0bARB8d5ANYI28CUWKOO33DhKZvdPLA9c ywoCqFqRfnO4HD6DUHUgzBQm5NSoH21JB5EuWTnEuCJkbc1vQu0DJdfvXdpgK881xXpMdU2Cq 8k8nMLnOh4/bl0lmWflnItUUYJELoatO/oKt4j+K0awUJ4mAn8az+R9sUwPcI3sx1JIMVpxnT z5N+59kaelzvCOFGyFLb3edE3GZ4YWIt/BFv3zCg8M5SKho9VJxI/cIygdLZNCK6EId/mNWO4 JR4uPjgb/Xy2yea/ZCES7O27AceCyMUqrChrDwaK7Vk2ce156+aFIWFPXOtb2Q5jfKuKiw3is ARs9psy8jrNIGHncjN/RWUQXjJjbDJfwahM6loshMnFW45M49CelAF9vkXf4IM4C9QG2+Ds3y IHTIHaWosJ5yLu2wgydLrKeXy3NoQ1IPK306qpc+Yry3XlYre7zrOgUL4vkW6Gb+Uulv9cDuh RQwrEQNGx+63LPrQYTqzmEhBtQMTrnXVxC+JsiNh7CUV9CgHNqHu5xI+tYU1iIu5yIm4q/6pS PBn8/LczU1bkMnekbFYhfSqRDx1OIs9Sj0MvvRu5dyeo1tqBqrYO7MscMGZvw2ZAS0RM6BHDR Bx1OCf8p6ziXzi4KP31EFvJ9dIfw67fEN+f7UzWBHpeIwe6R8xYVyXRKfisFDrB1m+rcJqCFV wTZ3GROI+VyRMBJFSsrtuifij4vvNrMImSIYtaT7ri0e88J9lJY7gMPzXOvNpU7b/HLQpF3Dh vlLr1Q8eqWSdmTHwVKyyVAhyLtoCTGR2PQPVWnMUq4Px7oaZVI= Sender: git-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: git@vger.kernel.org Hi Jonathan, On Tue, 19 Sep 2017, Jonathan Nieder wrote: > Johannes Schindelin wrote: > > > To relate that, you are using a plain text format that is not well > > defined and not structured, and certainly not machine-readable, for > > information that is crucial for project management. > > > > What you need is a tool to aggregate this information, to help working > > with it, to manage the project, and to be updated automatically. And > > to publish this information continuously, without costing you extra > > effort. > > > > I understand that you started before GitHub existed, and before GitHub > > was an option, the script-generated What's cooking mail was the best > > you could do. > > I think you are subtly (but not directly, for some reason?) advocating > moving project management for the Git project to GitHub Issues. No, I don't. I know how cumbersome it would be to move tons of people over from one type of project management to another. However, the current situation is not really tenable, is it? It is tedious for everybody involved. I know Junio defends the status quo, but I cannot imagine that he really likes it, as too much is too manual and labor-intensive. As I mentioned at the GitMerge (which was a bit pointless, because Junio was not there, not even via Skype), I do not advocate one radical change, ever. > For what it's worth: > > 1. I would be happy to see Git adopt a bug tracker. As we've > discussed on the list before, I suspect the only way that this is > going to happen is if some contributors start using a bug tracker > and keep up with bugs there, without requiring everyone to use it. > That is how the Linux Kernel project started using > bugzilla.kernel.org, for example. I agree that a bug tracker goes a long way. Personally, I feel Bugzilla is way too clunky to use, but I am pampered. However, I could imagine that allowing issues to be opened at https://github.com/git/git, and encouraging bug submissions there for people who really need to be able to find out very, very quickly what the current state of their bug report is, would go a long way. Of course, this would require a commitment by Junio and others to allow discussions to move to that bug tracker from the mailing list. Once that willingness is there, this should be a viable alternative to reporting bugs on the mailing list (and have those reports go unanswered because they fell off the radar...). > 2. GitHub Issues is one of my least favorite bug trackers, for what > it's worth. If some sub-project of Git chooses to use it, then > that's great and I won't get in their way. I'm just providing > this single data point that approximately any other tracker > (Bugzilla, JIRA, debbugs, patchwork) is something I'd be more > likely to use. My experience with Git for Windows, where I try to live Postel's Law by accepting bug reports via mailing list and GitHub issues (and earlier Google Code, when that was still alive and kicking), and to a certain extent even via Twitter: next to nobody likes sending bug reports via mail. So to add to your sentiment, I like Bugzilla *less* than GitHub issues, and the worst bug tracker is a mailing list. Or maybe you have written a shell script that can answer the question "which of my reported bugs/submitted patch series are still open?" for the Git mailing list? > 3. This advice might feel hopeless, because if the maintainer is not > involved in the initial pilot, then how does the bug tracker get > notified when a patch has been accepted? But fortunately this is > a problem other people have solved: e.g. most bug trackers have an > API that can be used to automatically notify the bug when a patch > with a certain subject line appears on a certain branch. Yes, I agree. The willingness to see the problem, followed by the willingness to discuss possible solutions, those two need to be the first steps. Ciao, Dscho