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From: Johannes Schindelin <Johannes.Schindelin@gmx.de>
To: Paolo Ciarrocchi <paolo.ciarrocchi@gmail.com>
Cc: git@vger.kernel.org, Jeff King <peff@peff.net>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/4] dropping support for older curl
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 23:50:09 +0200 (CEST)	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.1.1708142302180.19382@virtualbox> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAHVLzcnnrABmkYNg31Aq99NgBbyuCKEM60pHGygyjXbjmaUEYQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Paolo,

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Paolo Ciarrocchi wrote:

> Il 10 ago 2017 11:39 AM, "Johannes Schindelin" <Johannes.Schindelin@gmx.de>
> ha scritto:
> 
> 
> 
> Footnote *1*: It is no secret that I find our patch submission less than
> inviting. Granted, *I* use it. *I* did not have problems entering the
> mailing list. But then, my mails were not swallowed silently, because my
> mail program does not send HTML by default. And prepared by the German
> school system (I learned the term "sugar coating" only when exposed to
> some US culture), I had little emotional problems with being criticized
> and not thanked for my contribution, I persisted nevertheless. The opinion
> that the Git contribution process is a lot less inviting than it could be
> is not only my view, by the way. I hear this a lot. I give you that we are
> not quite as textbook "keep out from here unless you look like us, smell
> like us, talk like us, have the same genital setup like us" as the Linux
> kernel mailing list, but we are in a different universe compared to, say,
> the Drupal community. And their universe is a lot nicer to live in.
> 
> 
> Isn't SumbitGit a possible answer to your doubts (I strongly agree with
> you) about the current development process?

No. I hate to say that SubmitGit neither integrates well with GitHub Pull
Requests (code comments on GitHub are approximately 1,523x easier to
write, read, associate with the actual code, and see the current state of,
compared to the mailing list, and SubmitGit does not even hint at
integrating with that user experience).

Also, the barrier to start using SubmitGit is rather high. If you open a
Pull Request on github.com/git/git, you get *no* indication that SubmitGit
is an option to *actually* get the code into Git. There are also concerns
about required permissions that Junio Hamano himself would not accept.

Now, let's assume that you submitted the code via SubmitGit. The
challenges of the patch submission process do not end there, yet SubmitGit
goes home and has a beer. But the hard part, the discussions on the
mailing list, the status updates in the completely separate What's cooking
mails, the missing links back to the original source code (let alone the
information in which worktree on your computer under which branch name
that topic was developed again?), the diverging mail threads, the
"rerolls" that should not forget to Cc: all reviewers of previous rounds,
all that jazz is still all very, very manual.

And even if there was an easier path from having a local branch that works
to finally getting it onto the list in the required form, your mail is an
eloquent example of one of the most preposterous hurdles along the way: we
pride ourselves with the openness we demonstrate by communicating via a
mailing list, everybody has a mail address, amirite? But of course, HTML
mails, like, about 130% of all mails on the internet (or so it feels),
including yours, are dropped. Silently. Not so open anymore, are we.

It is all so frustrating, really. I work in a team (Visual Studio Team
Services, you can think of it as kind of a Microsoft take on Git hosting
plus a lot of other tooling) where we get really, really positive feedback
regarding our user experience, in particular the frequent enhancements to
PRs. It is really powerful to open, review and merge PRs, interact with
other developers, see the state of PRs and their respective discussions,
open and resolve issues, automate workflows and build tasks [*1*]. And
then I try to convince people here on this mailing list that it really
makes a difference if you start using tools to lighten the load of
everybody, and... little changes.

At least thanks to Lars Schneider's incredible efforts we have Continuous
Testing (I know how much time he spent on this, it is another thing
deserving the label "preposterous", and I know how much time I spent on
top to add the Windows part which mostly works). If only we could push it
further to true Continuous Integration. Or at least to accepting PRs from
professionals who simply have no time to fight with our patch contribution
process and whose expertise we lose as a consequence.

Ciao,
Johannes

Footnote *1*: The funniest part about this is that I do get mails about
all of this all the time. When I am pulled in as a reviewer. When a build
failed. When a previously failing task was fixed by a new build. When
somebody responded to my comments. The difference to the mailing
list-centric approach is of course that those mails are only
notifications, and link back to the tool appropriately supporting what
I, the user, want to get done.

  parent reply	other threads:[~2017-08-14 21:50 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 173+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2017-08-09 12:00 [PATCH 0/4] dropping support for older curl Jeff King
2017-08-09 12:01 ` [PATCH 1/4] http: drop support for curl < 7.11.1 Jeff King
2017-08-09 12:01 ` [PATCH 2/4] http: drop support for curl < 7.16.0 Jeff King
2017-08-09 17:29   ` Stefan Beller
2017-08-09 21:13     ` Jeff King
2017-08-09 17:40   ` Junio C Hamano
2017-08-09 18:03     ` Nicolas Morey-Chaisemartin
2017-08-09 21:17       ` Jeff King
2017-08-09 21:29         ` Nicolas Morey-Chaisemartin
2017-08-09 21:49           ` Jeff King
2017-08-09 21:15     ` Jeff King
2017-08-09 12:02 ` [PATCH 3/4] http: drop support for curl < 7.19.4 Jeff King
2017-08-09 13:14   ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-08-09 13:38     ` Jeff King
2017-08-09 13:49       ` [PATCH 5/4] curl: remove ifdef'd code never used with curl >=7.19.4 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-08-09 17:34   ` [PATCH 3/4] http: drop support for curl < 7.19.4 Stefan Beller
2017-08-09 21:19     ` Jeff King
2017-08-10 12:36   ` Mischa POSLAWSKY
2017-08-10 17:34     ` Jeff King
2017-08-09 12:02 ` [PATCH 4/4] http: #error on too-old curl Jeff King
2017-08-09 17:37   ` Stefan Beller
2017-08-09 21:42 ` [PATCH 0/4] dropping support for older curl Johannes Schindelin
2017-08-09 21:47   ` Jeff King
2017-08-10  9:01     ` Tom G. Christensen
2017-08-10  9:36     ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-08-10 21:33       ` Jeff King
2017-08-10 22:17         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-08-10 23:09           ` Jeff King
2017-08-11  0:17             ` Jeff King
     [not found]       ` <CAHVLzcnnrABmkYNg31Aq99NgBbyuCKEM60pHGygyjXbjmaUEYQ@mail.gmail.com>
2017-08-14 21:50         ` Johannes Schindelin [this message]
2017-08-10 20:33     ` Tom G. Christensen
2017-08-10 21:32       ` Jeff King
2017-08-10 22:23         ` Tom G. Christensen
2017-08-10 22:54           ` Jeff King
2017-08-10 23:17             ` Tom G. Christensen
2017-08-10 23:23               ` Jeff King
2017-08-10 23:36                 ` Tom G. Christensen
2017-08-11 16:37                   ` [PATCH 0/2] http: handle curl with vendor backports Tom G. Christensen
2017-08-11 22:15                     ` Junio C Hamano
2017-08-12  6:20                       ` Tom G. Christensen
2017-08-20  8:47                       ` Jeff King
2017-08-20 16:28                         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-08-23 15:41                           ` Jeff King
2017-08-11 16:37                   ` [PATCH 1/2] http: Fix handling of missing CURLPROTO_* Tom G. Christensen
2017-08-12  0:30                     ` Junio C Hamano
2017-08-12  9:04                       ` Tom G. Christensen
2017-08-20  8:59                       ` Jeff King
2017-08-11 16:37                   ` [PATCH 2/2] http: use a feature check to enable GSSAPI delegation control Tom G. Christensen
2017-08-09 23:39   ` [PATCH 0/4] dropping support for older curl Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
     [not found] ` <87zib8g8ub.fsf@gmail.com>
2017-08-10 10:04   ` Dropping support for older perl Tom G. Christensen
2021-07-21 22:22 ` [PATCH v2 0/5] drop support for ancient curl Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-21 22:22   ` [PATCH v2 1/5] http: drop support for curl < 7.11.1 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-21 22:56     ` Junio C Hamano
2021-07-21 22:22   ` [PATCH v2 2/5] http: drop support for curl < 7.16.0 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-21 22:22   ` [PATCH v2 3/5] http: drop support for curl < 7.19.4 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-21 23:05     ` Junio C Hamano
2021-07-21 22:22   ` [PATCH v2 4/5] http: drop support for curl < 7.19.3 and < 7.16.4 (again) Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-21 23:17     ` Junio C Hamano
2021-07-21 22:22   ` [PATCH v2 5/5] http: rename CURLOPT_FILE to CURLOPT_WRITEDATA Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-21 23:19     ` Junio C Hamano
2021-07-21 22:39   ` [PATCH v2 0/5] drop support for ancient curl Junio C Hamano
2021-07-21 22:56   ` brian m. carlson
2021-07-22  7:09     ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-22 22:56       ` brian m. carlson
2021-07-23  7:17         ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-22  6:27   ` Bagas Sanjaya
2021-07-23 10:16   ` Jeff King
2021-07-23 16:21     ` Junio C Hamano
2021-07-23 16:49       ` Randall S. Becker
2021-07-24  1:19       ` Jeff King
2021-07-30  9:31   ` [PATCH v3 0/7] drop support for ancient curl, improve version checks Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-30  9:31     ` [PATCH v3 1/7] http: drop support for curl < 7.11.1 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-30  9:31     ` [PATCH v3 2/7] http: drop support for curl < 7.16.0 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-30  9:31     ` [PATCH v3 3/7] http: drop support for curl < 7.19.4 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-30  9:31     ` [PATCH v3 4/7] http: drop support for curl < 7.19.3 and <= 7.16.4 (or <7.17.0) (again) Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-30 16:18       ` Junio C Hamano
2021-07-30  9:31     ` [PATCH v3 5/7] http: drop support for curl < 7.18.0 (again) Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-30 16:22       ` Junio C Hamano
2021-07-30  9:31     ` [PATCH v3 6/7] http: rename CURLOPT_FILE to CURLOPT_WRITEDATA Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-30  9:31     ` [PATCH v3 7/7] http: centralize the accounting of libcurl dependencies Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-30 16:47       ` Junio C Hamano
2021-07-30 17:59     ` [PATCH v4 0/5] drop support for ancient curl Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-30 17:59       ` [PATCH v4 1/5] http: drop support for curl < 7.11.1 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-30 17:59       ` [PATCH v4 2/5] http: drop support for curl < 7.16.0 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-10 22:28         ` Andrei Rybak
2021-09-11 14:32           ` Jeff King
2021-09-11 21:39             ` Junio C Hamano
2021-09-11 21:58               ` Jeff King
2021-07-30 17:59       ` [PATCH v4 3/5] http: drop support for curl < 7.19.4 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-30 17:59       ` [PATCH v4 4/5] http: drop support for curl < 7.19.3 and < 7.17.0 (again) Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-30 17:59       ` [PATCH v4 5/5] http: rename CURLOPT_FILE to CURLOPT_WRITEDATA Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-07-30 19:03       ` [PATCH v4 0/5] drop support for ancient curl Junio C Hamano
2021-07-30 19:50         ` Junio C Hamano
2021-07-30 22:49           ` Junio C Hamano
2021-09-08 15:31       ` [PATCH 0/5] post-v2.33 "drop support for ancient curl" follow-up Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-08 15:31         ` [PATCH 1/5] http: drop support for curl < 7.18.0 (again) Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-09 22:58           ` Junio C Hamano
2021-09-08 15:31         ` [PATCH 2/5] http: correct curl version check for CURLOPT_PINNEDPUBLICKEY Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-08 19:22           ` Jeff King
2021-09-09 23:12             ` Junio C Hamano
2021-09-10 14:19               ` Jeff King
2021-09-10 14:30                 ` Jeff King
2021-09-10 14:37                 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-10 15:28                   ` Jeff King
2021-09-10 15:45                     ` Daniel Stenberg
2021-09-10 19:41                       ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-10 21:57                         ` Daniel Stenberg
2021-09-08 15:31         ` [PATCH 3/5] http: correct version check for CURL_HTTP_VERSION_2_0 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-08 19:27           ` Jeff King
2021-09-08 15:31         ` [PATCH 4/5] http: centralize the accounting of libcurl dependencies Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-08 19:31           ` Jeff King
2021-09-09 17:40             ` Junio C Hamano
2021-09-09 19:26               ` Jeff King
2021-09-08 15:31         ` [PATCH 5/5] http: don't hardcode the value of CURL_SOCKOPT_OK Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-09 23:15           ` Junio C Hamano
2021-09-09 23:22             ` Junio C Hamano
2021-09-08 19:32         ` [PATCH 0/5] post-v2.33 "drop support for ancient curl" follow-up Jeff King
2021-09-10 11:04         ` [PATCH v2 0/8] " Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-10 11:04           ` [PATCH v2 1/8] INSTALL: don't mention the "curl" executable at all Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-10 14:53             ` Jeff King
2021-09-10 11:04           ` [PATCH v2 2/8] INSTALL: mention that we need libcurl 7.19.4 or newer to build Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-10 14:54             ` Jeff King
2021-09-10 16:56               ` Junio C Hamano
2021-09-10 17:46                 ` Jeff King
2021-09-10 11:04           ` [PATCH v2 3/8] Makefile: drop support for curl < 7.9.8 (again) Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-10 15:04             ` Jeff King
2021-09-10 11:04           ` [PATCH v2 4/8] http: drop support for curl < 7.18.0 (again) Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-10 11:04           ` [PATCH v2 5/8] http: correct version check for CURL_HTTP_VERSION_2 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-10 15:09             ` Jeff King
2021-09-10 15:20               ` Daniel Stenberg
2021-09-10 15:41                 ` Jeff King
2021-09-10 17:19                 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-10 11:04           ` [PATCH v2 6/8] http: correct curl version check for CURLOPT_PINNEDPUBLICKEY Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-10 17:00             ` Junio C Hamano
2021-09-10 11:04           ` [PATCH v2 7/8] http: centralize the accounting of libcurl dependencies Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-10 15:15             ` Jeff King
2021-09-10 11:04           ` [PATCH v2 8/8] http: don't hardcode the value of CURL_SOCKOPT_OK Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-10 15:17             ` Jeff King
2021-09-10 14:37           ` [PATCH v2 0/8] post-v2.33 "drop support for ancient curl" follow-up Jeff King
2021-09-10 15:08             ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-10 15:20               ` Jeff King
2021-09-10 16:52           ` Junio C Hamano
2021-09-10 17:06             ` Randall S. Becker
2021-09-10 17:42             ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-10 17:14           ` Junio C Hamano
2021-09-10 17:32             ` Junio C Hamano
2021-09-10 19:05               ` Konstantin Ryabitsev
2021-09-10 19:49                 ` Junio C Hamano
2021-09-10 17:47             ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-11  9:34           ` [PATCH v3 0/9] " Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-11  9:34             ` [PATCH v3 1/9] INSTALL: don't mention the "curl" executable at all Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-11  9:34             ` [PATCH v3 2/9] INSTALL: reword and copy-edit the "libcurl" section Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-11  9:34             ` [PATCH v3 3/9] INSTALL: mention that we need libcurl 7.19.4 or newer to build Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-11  9:34             ` [PATCH v3 4/9] Makefile: drop support for curl < 7.9.8 (again) Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-11  9:34             ` [PATCH v3 5/9] http: drop support for curl < 7.18.0 (again) Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-11  9:34             ` [PATCH v3 6/9] http: correct version check for CURL_HTTP_VERSION_2 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-11  9:34             ` [PATCH v3 7/9] http: correct curl version check for CURLOPT_PINNEDPUBLICKEY Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-11  9:34             ` [PATCH v3 8/9] http: centralize the accounting of libcurl dependencies Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-11  9:34             ` [PATCH v3 9/9] http: don't hardcode the value of CURL_SOCKOPT_OK Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-11 14:46             ` [PATCH v3 0/9] post-v2.33 "drop support for ancient curl" follow-up Jeff King
2021-09-12 19:01               ` Junio C Hamano
2021-09-13 14:51             ` [PATCH v4 " Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-13 14:51               ` [PATCH v4 1/9] INSTALL: don't mention the "curl" executable at all Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-13 14:51               ` [PATCH v4 2/9] INSTALL: reword and copy-edit the "libcurl" section Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-13 14:51               ` [PATCH v4 3/9] INSTALL: mention that we need libcurl 7.19.4 or newer to build Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-13 14:51               ` [PATCH v4 4/9] Makefile: drop support for curl < 7.9.8 (again) Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-13 14:51               ` [PATCH v4 5/9] http: drop support for curl < 7.18.0 (again) Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-13 14:51               ` [PATCH v4 6/9] http: correct version check for CURL_HTTP_VERSION_2 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-13 14:51               ` [PATCH v4 7/9] http: correct curl version check for CURLOPT_PINNEDPUBLICKEY Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-13 14:51               ` [PATCH v4 8/9] http: centralize the accounting of libcurl dependencies Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-13 14:51               ` [PATCH v4 9/9] http: don't hardcode the value of CURL_SOCKOPT_OK Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-09-13 17:02               ` [PATCH v4 0/9] post-v2.33 "drop support for ancient curl" follow-up Jeff King
2021-09-13 17:41                 ` Junio C Hamano

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