git@vger.kernel.org mailing list mirror (one of many)
 help / Atom feed
From: Adam Langley <agl@google.com>
To: jda@noekeon.org
Cc: "brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net>,
	Johannes Schindelin <Johannes.Schindelin@gmx.de>,
	Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>,
	Git Mailing List <git@vger.kernel.org>,
	demerphq@gmail.com,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	all@keccak.team
Subject: Re: Hash algorithm analysis
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 11:54:36 -0700
Message-ID: <CAL9PXLyNVLCCqV1ftRa3r4kuoamDZOF29HJEhv2JXrbHj1nirA@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <f5bb91e8-5189-7f61-e018-91447c42845e@noekeon.org>

Somewhere upthread, Brian refers to me as a cryptographer. That's
flattering (thank you), but probably not really true even on a good
day. And certainly not true next to Joan Daemen. I do have experience
with crypto at scale and in ecosystems, though.

Joan's count of cryptanalysis papers is a reasonable way to try and
bring some quantitative clarity to an otherwise subjective topic. But
still, despite lacking any counterpoint to it, I find myself believing
that practical concerns are a stronger differentiater here.

But the world is in a position where a new, common hash function might
crystalise, and git could be the start of that. What that means for
the ecosystem is is that numerous libraries need to grow
implementations optimised for 3+ platforms and those platforms (esp
Intel) often need multiple versions (e.g. for different vector widths)
with code-size concerns pushing back at the same time. Intrinsics
still don't cut it, so that means hand-assembly and thus dealing with
gas vs Windows, CFI metadata, etc. Licensing differences mean that
code-sharing doesn't work nearly as well as one might hope.

Then complexity spreads upwards as testing matrices expand with the
combination of each signature algorithm with the new hash function,
options in numerous protocols etc.

In short, picking just one would be lovely.

For that reason, I've held back from SHA3 (which I consider distinct
from K12) because I didn't feel that it relieved enough pressure:
people who wanted more performance weren't going to be satisfied.
Other than that, I don't have strong feelings and, to be clear, K12
seems like a fine option.

But it does seem that a) there is probably not any more information to
discover that is going to alter your decision and b) waiting a short
to medium amount of time is probably not going to bring any definitive
developments either.


Cheers

AGL

  reply index

Thread overview: 66+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-06-09 20:56 State of NewHash work, future directions, and discussion brian m. carlson
2018-06-09 21:26 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-06-09 22:49 ` Hash algorithm analysis brian m. carlson
2018-06-11 19:29   ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-06-11 20:20     ` Linus Torvalds
2018-06-11 23:27       ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-06-12  0:11         ` David Lang
2018-06-12  0:45         ` Linus Torvalds
2018-06-11 22:35     ` brian m. carlson
2018-06-12 16:21       ` Gilles Van Assche
2018-06-13 23:58         ` brian m. carlson
2018-06-15 10:33           ` Gilles Van Assche
2018-07-20 21:52     ` brian m. carlson
2018-07-21  0:31       ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-07-21 19:52       ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-07-21 20:25         ` brian m. carlson
2018-07-21 22:38       ` Johannes Schindelin
2018-07-21 23:09         ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-21 23:59         ` brian m. carlson
2018-07-22  9:34           ` Eric Deplagne
2018-07-22 14:21             ` brian m. carlson
2018-07-22 14:55               ` Eric Deplagne
2018-07-26 10:05                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2018-07-22 15:23           ` Joan Daemen
2018-07-22 18:54             ` Adam Langley [this message]
2018-07-26 10:31             ` Johannes Schindelin
2018-07-23 12:40           ` demerphq
2018-07-23 12:48             ` Sitaram Chamarty
2018-07-23 12:55               ` demerphq
2018-07-23 18:23               ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-23 17:57             ` Stefan Beller
2018-07-23 18:35             ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-07-24 19:01       ` Edward Thomson
2018-07-24 20:31         ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-24 20:49           ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-07-24 21:13           ` Junio C Hamano
2018-07-24 22:10             ` brian m. carlson
2018-07-30  9:06               ` Johannes Schindelin
2018-07-30 20:01                 ` Dan Shumow
2018-08-03  2:57                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-09-18 15:18                   ` Joan Daemen
2018-09-18 15:32                     ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-09-18 16:50                     ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-25  8:30             ` [PATCH 0/2] document that NewHash is now SHA-256 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-07-25  8:30             ` [PATCH 1/2] doc hash-function-transition: note the lack of a changelog Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-07-25  8:30             ` [PATCH 2/2] doc hash-function-transition: pick SHA-256 as NewHash Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-07-25 16:45               ` Junio C Hamano
2018-07-25 17:25                 ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-07-25 21:32                   ` Junio C Hamano
2018-07-26 13:41                     ` [PATCH v2 " Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-08-03  7:20                       ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-08-03 16:40                         ` Junio C Hamano
2018-08-03 17:01                           ` Linus Torvalds
2018-08-03 16:42                         ` Linus Torvalds
2018-08-03 17:43                         ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-08-04  8:52                           ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-08-03 17:45                         ` brian m. carlson
2018-07-25 22:56                 ` [PATCH " brian m. carlson
2018-06-11 21:19   ` Hash algorithm analysis Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-06-21  8:20     ` Johannes Schindelin
2018-06-21 22:39     ` brian m. carlson
2018-06-11 18:09 ` State of NewHash work, future directions, and discussion Duy Nguyen
2018-06-12  1:28   ` brian m. carlson
2018-06-11 19:01 ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-06-12  2:28   ` brian m. carlson
2018-06-12  2:42     ` Jonathan Nieder

Reply instructions:

You may reply publically to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

  List information: http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=CAL9PXLyNVLCCqV1ftRa3r4kuoamDZOF29HJEhv2JXrbHj1nirA@mail.gmail.com \
    --to=agl@google.com \
    --cc=Johannes.Schindelin@gmx.de \
    --cc=all@keccak.team \
    --cc=demerphq@gmail.com \
    --cc=git@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=jda@noekeon.org \
    --cc=jrnieder@gmail.com \
    --cc=sandals@crustytoothpaste.net \
    --cc=torvalds@linux-foundation.org \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link

git@vger.kernel.org mailing list mirror (one of many)

Archives are clonable:
	git clone --mirror https://public-inbox.org/git
	git clone --mirror http://ou63pmih66umazou.onion/git
	git clone --mirror http://czquwvybam4bgbro.onion/git
	git clone --mirror http://hjrcffqmbrq6wope.onion/git

Newsgroups are available over NNTP:
	nntp://news.public-inbox.org/inbox.comp.version-control.git
	nntp://ou63pmih66umazou.onion/inbox.comp.version-control.git
	nntp://czquwvybam4bgbro.onion/inbox.comp.version-control.git
	nntp://hjrcffqmbrq6wope.onion/inbox.comp.version-control.git
	nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git

 note: .onion URLs require Tor: https://www.torproject.org/
       or Tor2web: https://www.tor2web.org/

AGPL code for this site: git clone https://public-inbox.org/ public-inbox