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From: Adam Langley <agl@google.com>
To: jda@noekeon.org
Cc: "brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net>,
	Johannes Schindelin <Johannes.Schindelin@gmx.de>,
	Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>,
	Git Mailing List <git@vger.kernel.org>,
	demerphq@gmail.com,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	all@keccak.team
Subject: Re: Hash algorithm analysis
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 11:54:36 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAL9PXLyNVLCCqV1ftRa3r4kuoamDZOF29HJEhv2JXrbHj1nirA@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <f5bb91e8-5189-7f61-e018-91447c42845e@noekeon.org>

Somewhere upthread, Brian refers to me as a cryptographer. That's
flattering (thank you), but probably not really true even on a good
day. And certainly not true next to Joan Daemen. I do have experience
with crypto at scale and in ecosystems, though.

Joan's count of cryptanalysis papers is a reasonable way to try and
bring some quantitative clarity to an otherwise subjective topic. But
still, despite lacking any counterpoint to it, I find myself believing
that practical concerns are a stronger differentiater here.

But the world is in a position where a new, common hash function might
crystalise, and git could be the start of that. What that means for
the ecosystem is is that numerous libraries need to grow
implementations optimised for 3+ platforms and those platforms (esp
Intel) often need multiple versions (e.g. for different vector widths)
with code-size concerns pushing back at the same time. Intrinsics
still don't cut it, so that means hand-assembly and thus dealing with
gas vs Windows, CFI metadata, etc. Licensing differences mean that
code-sharing doesn't work nearly as well as one might hope.

Then complexity spreads upwards as testing matrices expand with the
combination of each signature algorithm with the new hash function,
options in numerous protocols etc.

In short, picking just one would be lovely.

For that reason, I've held back from SHA3 (which I consider distinct
from K12) because I didn't feel that it relieved enough pressure:
people who wanted more performance weren't going to be satisfied.
Other than that, I don't have strong feelings and, to be clear, K12
seems like a fine option.

But it does seem that a) there is probably not any more information to
discover that is going to alter your decision and b) waiting a short
to medium amount of time is probably not going to bring any definitive
developments either.


Cheers

AGL

  reply	other threads:[~2018-07-22 18:54 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 66+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-06-09 20:56 State of NewHash work, future directions, and discussion brian m. carlson
2018-06-09 21:26 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-06-09 22:49 ` Hash algorithm analysis brian m. carlson
2018-06-11 19:29   ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-06-11 20:20     ` Linus Torvalds
2018-06-11 23:27       ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-06-12  0:11         ` David Lang
2018-06-12  0:45         ` Linus Torvalds
2018-06-11 22:35     ` brian m. carlson
2018-06-12 16:21       ` Gilles Van Assche
2018-06-13 23:58         ` brian m. carlson
2018-06-15 10:33           ` Gilles Van Assche
2018-07-20 21:52     ` brian m. carlson
2018-07-21  0:31       ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-07-21 19:52       ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-07-21 20:25         ` brian m. carlson
2018-07-21 22:38       ` Johannes Schindelin
2018-07-21 23:09         ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-21 23:59         ` brian m. carlson
2018-07-22  9:34           ` Eric Deplagne
2018-07-22 14:21             ` brian m. carlson
2018-07-22 14:55               ` Eric Deplagne
2018-07-26 10:05                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2018-07-22 15:23           ` Joan Daemen
2018-07-22 18:54             ` Adam Langley [this message]
2018-07-26 10:31             ` Johannes Schindelin
2018-07-23 12:40           ` demerphq
2018-07-23 12:48             ` Sitaram Chamarty
2018-07-23 12:55               ` demerphq
2018-07-23 18:23               ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-23 17:57             ` Stefan Beller
2018-07-23 18:35             ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-07-24 19:01       ` Edward Thomson
2018-07-24 20:31         ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-24 20:49           ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-07-24 21:13           ` Junio C Hamano
2018-07-24 22:10             ` brian m. carlson
2018-07-30  9:06               ` Johannes Schindelin
2018-07-30 20:01                 ` Dan Shumow
2018-08-03  2:57                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-09-18 15:18                   ` Joan Daemen
2018-09-18 15:32                     ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-09-18 16:50                     ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-25  8:30             ` [PATCH 0/2] document that NewHash is now SHA-256 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-07-25  8:30             ` [PATCH 1/2] doc hash-function-transition: note the lack of a changelog Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-07-25  8:30             ` [PATCH 2/2] doc hash-function-transition: pick SHA-256 as NewHash Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-07-25 16:45               ` Junio C Hamano
2018-07-25 17:25                 ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-07-25 21:32                   ` Junio C Hamano
2018-07-26 13:41                     ` [PATCH v2 " Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-08-03  7:20                       ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-08-03 16:40                         ` Junio C Hamano
2018-08-03 17:01                           ` Linus Torvalds
2018-08-03 16:42                         ` Linus Torvalds
2018-08-03 17:43                         ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-08-04  8:52                           ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-08-03 17:45                         ` brian m. carlson
2018-07-25 22:56                 ` [PATCH " brian m. carlson
2018-06-11 21:19   ` Hash algorithm analysis Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-06-21  8:20     ` Johannes Schindelin
2018-06-21 22:39     ` brian m. carlson
2018-06-11 18:09 ` State of NewHash work, future directions, and discussion Duy Nguyen
2018-06-12  1:28   ` brian m. carlson
2018-06-11 19:01 ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-06-12  2:28   ` brian m. carlson
2018-06-12  2:42     ` Jonathan Nieder

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