From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on dcvr.yhbt.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-ASN: AS31976 209.132.180.0/23 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.9 required=3.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI, SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_NONE shortcircuit=no autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [209.132.180.67]) by dcvr.yhbt.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACA261F463 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 10:25:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S2393454AbfITKZh (ORCPT ); Fri, 20 Sep 2019 06:25:37 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f65.google.com ([209.85.221.65]:38408 "EHLO mail-wr1-f65.google.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S2393353AbfITKZh (ORCPT ); Fri, 20 Sep 2019 06:25:37 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f65.google.com with SMTP id l11so6192730wrx.5 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 03:25:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=CYo0XwlfyIZOAOp2aPSx8xH3WhfuVAwhVTfOxqdnaD4=; b=rk5HvGpXsxbAvsDZhzFYzm+JNlPFKyB4HjLjKUl36u3/91S0NWovIJgW+p7uRoH8Ge bIa63TG8l0Z5seBk7eLA3MNF7F/kz6qUDDDlNpk8fq0hw4oNJJOwgtX+fpp4K7nYc/2I C0o1q25V8EM1a7NvDbbRTeZwy7wbAXiE1Y618pbgHt+JJQeaUrRDxtLDrT+QEFyWfbd8 7KJluZGYNpdl40i8pmwewqTN6To4DUkySaWveTV5Jc73b4HbKYLcD8tsr5WHA/gKEHAA HTWnIMcNtQW48hFo2srnfcq4trKRVMooyCJMUoZoAZkokZo/l7s7NJqW4AWqoqBB9KXQ UBig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=CYo0XwlfyIZOAOp2aPSx8xH3WhfuVAwhVTfOxqdnaD4=; b=lOqIAyZTMYhkIQ1IQHl+Cf3RLTTe9CyNzNQv5R6jt8yakvQz96ior/3ojAVrK/yMi0 EchDOU4vRIte/6Vpz31DRod9RyrLA6RWV6YPYGyh2zrSDNfRA2SovVw47yQ5dXOjqRgj 6yTBfVEKD/VOXV4ahmF76FlmO3aXdntGPTsPaks5tOauVuYTiJtg+shtaxwmPctTD3Qp zyvIOKBs+cmGpoIO0rSEodI6D65gqcZXYhQaPqt4ZlQeuDm2wQpCnfIFTEsNu0Mp38AE hdvdbI0uN7juTuXeD6kbFmZzn3VJs7gdEQ6cXw1LgIFL+OtNZvL/CLI82ERQ3M+gjhtN +faQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUguKl2IXo3omiI5inpgWPmBVQQR6/LoFn3hrb+SmnVm8Icw8gp FecrIVpdly4NuClZ3N8rNKRXVXWBgxpNjD/Hq7s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxTTzXcVZSZNpPBUvAjv3UwUNuPnBT5mcTxigb8Rd0duVXJbDZdGmGGUkudyJ63L6xuDfLy1cgCYWj8ZIckR1I= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:5005:: with SMTP id e5mr11157890wrt.79.1568975133768; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 03:25:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71fba9e7-6314-6ef9-9959-6ae06843d17a@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Klaus Sembritzki Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 12:25:21 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Growing the Git community To: Derrick Stolee Cc: "git@vger.kernel.org" , "peff@peff.net" , Emily Shaffer , Jonathan Nieder , Johannes Schindelin , "gitster@pobox.com" , garimasigit@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: git-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: git@vger.kernel.org I have a paper-sheet hanging in my private living-room now, stating: - "This is my private living-room, and you are guilty invading my privacy using EMF-telepathy." - You must all have the same. On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 9:43 AM Klaus Sembritzki wrote: > > Protecting people is more important than protecting the climate. > > On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 8:54 AM Klaus Sembritzki wrot= e: > > > > Hello all, > > > > Due to the following mathematical proof, stating it is right to be a > > normal female or male, we must now all file formal complaints about > > products lying, it was not OK to be a normal female or male. > > > > - Die naturalistic-fallacy ist inzwischen als (nature&community) > > gel=C3=B6st, und "we made it far, as normal females&&males" ist damit a= ls > > korrekt bewiesen. > > - False is defined as getting us extinct in the long run. > > - Emanuel Kant completes the proof. > > - If they all stay convinced after a few nights of good night's sleep, > > this means that the measurement-matrices their brains converge to > > chime in under all environmental influences. > > > > Cheers, > > Bavaria > > > > On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 7:41 AM Klaus Sembritzki wr= ote: > > > > > > What does the soul do? It just says NO. > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 7:04 AM Klaus Sembritzki = wrote: > > > > > > > > Our harrassers have no soul, please help. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:20 PM Klaus Sembritzki wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I hereby instruct the German military to kill our harrassers. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:12 PM Klaus Sembritzki wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > > > > > A game-theoretical insight, as the GIT mailing-list has just be= en > > > > > > hacked: Such a move necessitates everyone to down-value the hac= kers' > > > > > > intellects, if it was not a false-flag-operation. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Klaus Sembritzki > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 8:44 PM Klaus Sembritzki wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Long texts stem from false (You can deduce anything from s= omething > > > > > > > that is wrong). > > > > > > > 2. TL;DR is therefore sane. > > > > > > > 3. (Inclusion & Diversity) is a tautology, it includes all of= it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > Klaus Sembritzki > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 8:35 PM Derrick Stolee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > During the Virtual Git Contributors' Summit, Dscho brought = up the topic of > > > > > > > > "Inclusion & Diversity". We discussed ideas for how to make= the community > > > > > > > > more welcoming to new contributors of all kinds. Let's disc= uss some of > > > > > > > > the ideas we talked about, and some that have been growing = since. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feel free to pick apart all of the claims I make below. Thi= s is based > > > > > > > > on my own experience and opinions. It should be a good base= line > > > > > > > > for us to all arrive with valuable action items. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have CC'd some of the people who were part of that discus= sion. Sorry > > > > > > > > if I accidentally left someone out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I. Goals and Perceived Problems > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As a community, our number one goal is for Git to continue = to be the best > > > > > > > > distributed version control system. At minimum, it should c= ontinue to be > > > > > > > > the most widely-used DVCS. Towards that goal, we need to ma= ke sure Git is > > > > > > > > the best solution for every kind of developer in every indu= stry. The > > > > > > > > community cannot do this without including developers of al= l kinds. This > > > > > > > > means having a diverse community, for all senses of the wor= d: Diverse in > > > > > > > > physical location, gender, professional status, age, and ot= hers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In addition, the community must continue to grow, but membe= rs leave the > > > > > > > > community on a regular basis for multiple reasons. New cont= ributors must > > > > > > > > join and mature within the community or the community will = dwindle. Without > > > > > > > > dedicating effort and attention to this, natural forces may= result in the > > > > > > > > community being represented only by contributors working at= large tech > > > > > > > > companies focused on the engineering systems of very large = groups. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is worth noting that this community growth must never be= at the cost > > > > > > > > of code quality. We must continue to hold all contributors = to a high > > > > > > > > standard so Git stays a stable product. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are some problems that may exist within the Git commun= ity and may > > > > > > > > form a barrier to new contributors entering: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Discovering how to contribute to Git is non-obvious. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Submitting to a mailing list is a new experience for mos= t developers. > > > > > > > > This includes the full review and discussion process. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. The high standards for patch quality are intimidating to= new contributors. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Some people do not feel comfortable engaging in a commun= ity without > > > > > > > > a clear Code of Conduct. This discomfort is significant = and based on real > > > > > > > > experiences throughout society. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Since Git development happens in a different place than = where users > > > > > > > > acquire the end product, some are not aware that they c= an contribute. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > II. Approach > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The action items below match the problems listed above. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Improve the documentation for contributing to Git. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In preparation for this email, I talked to someone familiar= with issues > > > > > > > > around new contributors, and they sat down to try and figur= e out how to > > > > > > > > contribute to Git. The first place they went was https://gi= thub.com/git/git > > > > > > > > and looked at the README. It takes deep reading of a paragr= aph to see a > > > > > > > > link to the SubmittingPatches docs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To improve this experience, we could rewrite the README to = have clearer > > > > > > > > section markers, including one "Contributing to Git" sectio= n relatively > > > > > > > > high in the doc. We may want to update the README for multi= ple reasons. > > > > > > > > It should link to the new "My First Contribution" document > > > > > > > > (https://git-scm.com/docs/MyFirstContribution). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Add more pointers to GitGitGadget > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have a reference to GitGitGadget in the GitHub PR templa= te to try and > > > > > > > > get people who try to submit a pull request to git/git to i= nstead create > > > > > > > > one on GitGitGadget. However, that captures contributors wh= o didn't read > > > > > > > > the docs about how to submit! (This is somewhat covered by = the "My First > > > > > > > > Contribution" doc as well, so making that more visible will= also help.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could we reference GitGitGadget as part of the Submitting P= atches doc > > > > > > > > as well? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Introduce a new "mentors" mailing list > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From personal experience, all new contributors at Microsoft= (after Jeff > > > > > > > > Hostetler at least) have first had their patches reviewed p= rivately by > > > > > > > > the team before sending them upstream. Each time, the new c= ontributor > > > > > > > > gained confidence about the code and had help interpreting = feedback from > > > > > > > > the list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We want to make this kind of experience part of the open Gi= t community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The idea discussed in the virtual summit was to create a ne= w mailing > > > > > > > > list (probably a Google group) of Git community members. Th= e point of > > > > > > > > the list is for a new contributor to safely say "I'm lookin= g for a > > > > > > > > mentor!" and the list can help pair them with a mentor. Thi= s must > > > > > > > > include (a) who is available now? and (b) what area of the = code are they > > > > > > > > hoping to change? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As evidence that this is a good idea, please see the recent= research > > > > > > > > paper ""We Don't Do That Here": How Collaborative Editing W= ith Mentors > > > > > > > > Improves Engagement in Social Q&A Communities" [1]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] http://www.chrisparnin.me/pdf/chi18.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When asking your first question on Stack Overflow, this gro= up added > > > > > > > > a pop-up saying "Would you like someone to help you with th= is?". Then, > > > > > > > > a mentor would assist crafting the best possible question t= o ensure > > > > > > > > the asker got the best response possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe this would work in our community, too. The action= items > > > > > > > > are: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a. Create the mailing list and add people to the list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > b. Add a pointer to the list in our documentation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: the people on the mentoring list do not need to be > > > > > > > > "senior" community members. In fact, someone who more recen= tly > > > > > > > > joined the community has a more fresh perspective on the pr= ocess. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Add an official Code of Conduct > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far, the community has had an unofficial policy of "be n= ice, > > > > > > > > as much as possible". We should add a Code of Conduct that = is > > > > > > > > more explicit about the behavior we want to model. This was= also > > > > > > > > discussed in the meeting with wide approval. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Advertise that Git wants new contributors > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After we put items 1-4 in place, we should reach out to the > > > > > > > > general tech community that we are interested in new > > > > > > > > contributors. It's not enough to open the door, we should > > > > > > > > point people to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This item is much less explicit about the _how_. This could > > > > > > > > be done at the individual level: posting to social media or > > > > > > > > blog posts. But perhaps there is something more official we > > > > > > > > could do? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > III. Measurement > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do we know if any of these items make a difference? We > > > > > > > > need to gather data and measure the effects. With the size > > > > > > > > of our community, I expect that it will take multiple years > > > > > > > > to really see a measurable difference. But, no time like > > > > > > > > the present to ask "What does success look like?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are a few measurements that we could use. Each "count" > > > > > > > > could be measured over any time frame. We could use major > > > > > > > > releases as time buckets: v2.22.0 to v2.23.0, for example. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. How many first-time contributors sent a patch? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. How many contributors had their first commit accepted in= to > > > > > > > > the release? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. How many contributors started reviewing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. How many total patches/reviews did the list receive? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What other measurements would be reasonable? We could try > > > > > > > > building tools to collect these measurements for the past > > > > > > > > to see historical trends. Based on that data, we may be > > > > > > > > able to set goals for the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With such a small community, and an expected small number > > > > > > > > of new contributors, it may also be good to do interviews > > > > > > > > with the new contributors to ask about their experience. > > > > > > > > In particular, we would be looking for moments where they > > > > > > > > had trouble or experience friction. Each of those > > > > > > > > moments is a barrier that others may not be clearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I look forward to the discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > -Stolee