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From: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason <avarab@gmail.com>
To: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>
Cc: Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com>,
	Ben Peart <peartben@gmail.com>,
	git@vger.kernel.org, pclouds@gmail.com,
	Ben Peart <benpeart@microsoft.com>,
	jonathantanmy@google.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH 5/5] index: offer advice for unknown index extensions
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:30:24 +0100
Message-ID: <87o9aizsjz.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20181121010309.GE149929@google.com>


On Wed, Nov 21 2018, Jonathan Nieder wrote:

> Junio C Hamano wrote:
>
>>              This series has a strong smell of pushing back by the
>> toolsmiths who refuse to promptly upgrade to help their users, and
>> that is why I do not feel entirely happy with this series.
>
> Last reply, I promise. :)
>
> This sentence might have the key to the misunderstanding.  Let me say
> a little more about where this showed up in the internal deployment
> here, to clarify things a little.
>
> At Google we deploy snapshots of the "next" branch approximately
> weekly so that we can find problems early before they affect a
> published release.  We rely on the ability to roll back quickly when a
> problem is discovered, and we might care more about compatibility than
> some others because of that.
>
> A popular tool within Google has a bundled copy of Git (also a
> snapshot of the "next" branch, but from a few weeks prior) and when we
> deployed Git with the EOIE and IEOT extensions, users of that tool
> very quickly reported the mysterious message.
>
> That said, the maintainers of that tool did not complain at all, so
> hopefully I can allay your worries about toolsmiths pushing back.
> Once the problem reached my attention (a few days later than I would
> have liked it to), the Git team at Google knew that we could not roll
> back and were certainly alarmed about what that means about our
> ability to cope with other problems should we need to.  But we were
> able to quickly update that popular tool --- no issue.
>
> Instead, we ran into a number of other users running into the same
> problem, when sharing repositories between machines using sshfs, etc.
> That, plus the aforementioned inability to roll back Git if we need
> to, meant that this was a serious issue so we quickly addressed it in
> the internal installation.
>
> In general, we haven't had much trouble getting people to use Git
> 2.19.1 or newer.  So the problem here does not have to do with users
> being slow to upgrade.
>
> Instead, it's simply that upgrading Git should not cause the older,
> widely deployed version of Git to complain about the repositories it
> acts on.  That's a recipe for difficult debugging situations, it can
> lead to people upgrading less quickly and reporting bugs later, and
> all in all it's a bad situation to be in.  I've used tools like
> Subversion that would upgrade repositories so they are unusable by the
> previous version and experienced all of these problems.
>
> So I consider it important *to Git upstream* to handle this well in
> the Git 2.20 release.  We can flip the default soon after, even as
> soon as 2.21.
>
> Moreover, I am not the only one who ran into this --- e.g. from [1],
> 2018-10-19:
>
>   17:10 <peff> jrnieder: Yes, I noticed that annoyance myself. ;)
>   17:11 <newren> Yeah, I saw that message a few times and was slightly
>                  annoyed as well.
>
> Now, a meta point.  Throughout this discussion, I have been hoping for
> some acknowledgement of the problem --- e.g. an "I am sympathetic to
> what you are trying to do, but <X>".  I wasn't able to find that, and
> that is part of what contributed to the feeling of not being heard.
>
> Thanks for your patient explanations, and hope that helps,
> Jonathan

I think it makes total sense to fix this. I had not spotted this myself
since I tend to just roll forward and only use one version of git on one
system, but fixing this makes sense.

  parent reply index

Thread overview: 199+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-08-23 15:41 [PATCH v1] read-cache: speed up index load through parallelization Ben Peart
2018-08-23 17:31 ` Stefan Beller
2018-08-23 19:44   ` Ben Peart
2018-08-24 18:40   ` Duy Nguyen
2018-08-28 14:53     ` Ben Peart
2018-08-23 18:06 ` Junio C Hamano
2018-08-23 20:33   ` Ben Peart
2018-08-24 15:37     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-08-24 15:57       ` Duy Nguyen
2018-08-24 17:28         ` Ben Peart
2018-08-25  6:44         ` [PATCH] read-cache.c: optimize reading index format v4 Nguyễn Thái Ngọc Duy
2018-08-27 19:36           ` Junio C Hamano
2018-08-28 19:25             ` Duy Nguyen
2018-08-28 23:54               ` Ben Peart
2018-08-29 17:14               ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-04 16:08             ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-02 13:19           ` [PATCH v2 0/1] " Nguyễn Thái Ngọc Duy
2018-09-02 13:19             ` [PATCH v2 1/1] read-cache.c: " Nguyễn Thái Ngọc Duy
2018-09-04 18:58               ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-04 19:31               ` Junio C Hamano
2018-08-24 18:20       ` [PATCH v1] read-cache: speed up index load through parallelization Duy Nguyen
2018-08-24 18:40         ` Ben Peart
2018-08-24 19:00           ` Duy Nguyen
2018-08-24 19:57             ` Ben Peart
2018-08-29 15:25 ` [PATCH v2 0/3] " Ben Peart
2018-08-29 15:25   ` [PATCH v2 1/3] " Ben Peart
2018-08-29 17:14     ` Junio C Hamano
2018-08-29 21:35       ` Ben Peart
2018-09-03 19:16     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-08-29 15:25   ` [PATCH v2 2/3] read-cache: load cache extensions on worker thread Ben Peart
2018-08-29 17:12     ` Junio C Hamano
2018-08-29 21:42       ` Ben Peart
2018-08-29 22:19         ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-03 19:21     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-03 19:27       ` Duy Nguyen
2018-08-29 15:25   ` [PATCH v2 3/3] read-cache: micro-optimize expand_name_field() to speed up V4 index parsing Ben Peart
2018-09-06 21:03 ` [PATCH v3 0/4] read-cache: speed up index load through parallelization Ben Peart
2018-09-06 21:03   ` [PATCH v3 1/4] read-cache: optimize expand_name_field() to speed up V4 index parsing Ben Peart
2018-09-06 21:03   ` [PATCH v3 2/4] eoie: add End of Index Entry (EOIE) extension Ben Peart
2018-09-07 17:55     ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-07 20:23       ` Ben Peart
2018-09-08  6:29         ` Martin Ågren
2018-09-08 14:03           ` Ben Peart
2018-09-08 17:08             ` Martin Ågren
2018-09-06 21:03   ` [PATCH v3 3/4] read-cache: load cache extensions on a worker thread Ben Peart
2018-09-07 21:10     ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-08 14:56       ` Ben Peart
2018-09-06 21:03   ` [PATCH v3 4/4] read-cache: speed up index load through parallelization Ben Peart
2018-09-07  4:16     ` Torsten Bögershausen
2018-09-07 13:43       ` Ben Peart
2018-09-07 17:21   ` [PATCH v3 0/4] " Junio C Hamano
2018-09-07 18:31     ` Ben Peart
2018-09-08 13:18     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-11 23:26 ` [PATCH v4 0/5] " Ben Peart
2018-09-11 23:26   ` [PATCH v4 1/5] eoie: add End of Index Entry (EOIE) extension Ben Peart
2018-09-11 23:26   ` [PATCH v4 2/5] read-cache: load cache extensions on a worker thread Ben Peart
2018-09-11 23:26   ` [PATCH v4 3/5] read-cache: speed up index load through parallelization Ben Peart
2018-09-11 23:26   ` [PATCH v4 4/5] read-cache.c: optimize reading index format v4 Ben Peart
2018-09-11 23:26   ` [PATCH v4 5/5] read-cache: clean up casting and byte decoding Ben Peart
2018-09-12 14:34   ` [PATCH v4 0/5] read-cache: speed up index load through parallelization Ben Peart
2018-09-12 16:18 ` [PATCH v5 " Ben Peart
2018-09-12 16:18   ` [PATCH v5 1/5] eoie: add End of Index Entry (EOIE) extension Ben Peart
2018-09-13 22:44     ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-15 10:02     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-17 14:54       ` Ben Peart
2018-09-17 16:05         ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-17 17:31           ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-17 17:38             ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-17 19:08               ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-12 16:18   ` [PATCH v5 2/5] read-cache: load cache extensions on a worker thread Ben Peart
2018-09-15 10:22     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-15 10:24       ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-17 16:38         ` Ben Peart
2018-09-15 16:23       ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-17 17:19         ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-17 16:26       ` Ben Peart
2018-09-17 16:45         ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-17 21:32       ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-12 16:18   ` [PATCH v5 3/5] read-cache: load cache entries on worker threads Ben Peart
2018-09-15 10:31     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-17 17:25       ` Ben Peart
2018-09-15 11:07     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-15 11:09       ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-17 18:52         ` Ben Peart
2018-09-15 11:29     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-12 16:18   ` [PATCH v5 4/5] read-cache.c: optimize reading index format v4 Ben Peart
2018-09-12 16:18   ` [PATCH v5 5/5] read-cache: clean up casting and byte decoding Ben Peart
2018-09-26 19:54 ` [PATCH v6 0/7] speed up index load through parallelization Ben Peart
2018-09-26 19:54   ` [PATCH v6 1/7] read-cache.c: optimize reading index format v4 Ben Peart
2018-09-26 19:54   ` [PATCH v6 2/7] read-cache: clean up casting and byte decoding Ben Peart
2018-09-26 19:54   ` [PATCH v6 3/7] eoie: add End of Index Entry (EOIE) extension Ben Peart
2018-09-28  0:19     ` SZEDER Gábor
2018-09-28 18:38       ` Ben Peart
2018-09-29  0:51     ` SZEDER Gábor
2018-09-29  5:45     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-29 18:24       ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-26 19:54   ` [PATCH v6 4/7] config: add new index.threads config setting Ben Peart
2018-09-28  0:26     ` SZEDER Gábor
2018-09-28 13:39       ` Ben Peart
2018-09-28 17:07         ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-28 19:41           ` Ben Peart
2018-09-28 20:30             ` Ramsay Jones
2018-09-28 22:15               ` Junio C Hamano
2018-10-01 13:17                 ` Ben Peart
2018-10-01 15:06                   ` SZEDER Gábor
2018-09-26 19:54   ` [PATCH v6 5/7] read-cache: load cache extensions on a worker thread Ben Peart
2018-09-26 19:54   ` [PATCH v6 6/7] ieot: add Index Entry Offset Table (IEOT) extension Ben Peart
2018-09-26 19:54   ` [PATCH v6 7/7] read-cache: load cache entries on worker threads Ben Peart
2018-09-26 22:06   ` [PATCH v6 0/7] speed up index load through parallelization Junio C Hamano
2018-09-27 17:13   ` Duy Nguyen
2018-10-01 13:45 ` [PATCH v7 " Ben Peart
2018-10-01 13:45   ` [PATCH v7 1/7] read-cache.c: optimize reading index format v4 Ben Peart
2018-10-01 13:45   ` [PATCH v7 2/7] read-cache: clean up casting and byte decoding Ben Peart
2018-10-01 15:10     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-10-01 13:45   ` [PATCH v7 3/7] eoie: add End of Index Entry (EOIE) extension Ben Peart
2018-10-01 15:17     ` SZEDER Gábor
2018-10-02 14:34       ` Ben Peart
2018-10-01 15:30     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-10-02 15:13       ` Ben Peart
2018-10-01 13:45   ` [PATCH v7 4/7] config: add new index.threads config setting Ben Peart
2018-10-01 13:45   ` [PATCH v7 5/7] read-cache: load cache extensions on a worker thread Ben Peart
2018-10-01 15:50     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-10-02 15:00       ` Ben Peart
2018-10-01 13:45   ` [PATCH v7 6/7] ieot: add Index Entry Offset Table (IEOT) extension Ben Peart
2018-10-01 16:27     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-10-02 16:34       ` Ben Peart
2018-10-02 17:02         ` Duy Nguyen
2018-10-01 13:45   ` [PATCH v7 7/7] read-cache: load cache entries on worker threads Ben Peart
2018-10-01 17:09     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-10-02 19:09       ` Ben Peart
2018-10-10 15:59 ` [PATCH v8 0/7] speed up index load through parallelization Ben Peart
2018-10-10 15:59   ` [PATCH v8 1/7] read-cache.c: optimize reading index format v4 Ben Peart
2018-10-10 15:59   ` [PATCH v8 2/7] read-cache: clean up casting and byte decoding Ben Peart
2018-10-10 15:59   ` [PATCH v8 3/7] eoie: add End of Index Entry (EOIE) extension Ben Peart
2018-10-10 15:59   ` [PATCH v8 4/7] config: add new index.threads config setting Ben Peart
2018-10-10 15:59   ` [PATCH v8 5/7] read-cache: load cache extensions on a worker thread Ben Peart
2018-10-10 15:59   ` [PATCH v8 6/7] ieot: add Index Entry Offset Table (IEOT) extension Ben Peart
2018-10-10 15:59   ` [PATCH v8 7/7] read-cache: load cache entries on worker threads Ben Peart
2018-10-19 16:11     ` Jeff King
2018-10-22  2:14       ` Junio C Hamano
2018-10-22 14:40         ` Ben Peart
2018-10-12  3:18   ` [PATCH v8 0/7] speed up index load through parallelization Junio C Hamano
2018-10-14 12:28   ` Duy Nguyen
2018-10-15 17:33     ` Ben Peart
2018-11-13  0:38   ` [PATCH 0/3] Avoid confusing messages from new index extensions (Re: [PATCH v8 0/7] speed up index load through parallelization) Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-13  0:39     ` [PATCH 1/3] eoie: default to not writing EOIE section Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-13  1:05       ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-13 15:14         ` Ben Peart
2018-11-13 18:25           ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-14  1:36             ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-15  0:19               ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-13  0:39     ` [PATCH 2/3] ieot: default to not writing IEOT section Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-13  0:58       ` Jonathan Tan
2018-11-13  1:09       ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-13  1:12         ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-13 15:37           ` Duy Nguyen
2018-11-13 18:09         ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-13 15:22       ` Ben Peart
2018-11-13 18:18         ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-13 19:15           ` Ben Peart
2018-11-13 21:08             ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-14 18:09               ` Ben Peart
2018-11-15  0:05                 ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-14  3:05         ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-20  6:09           ` [PATCH v2 0/5] Avoid confusing messages from new index extensions Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-20  6:11             ` [PATCH 1/5] eoie: default to not writing EOIE section Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-20 13:06               ` Ben Peart
2018-11-20 13:21                 ` SZEDER Gábor
2018-11-21 16:46                   ` Jeff King
2018-11-22  0:47                     ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-20 15:01               ` Ben Peart
2018-11-20  6:12             ` [PATCH 2/5] ieot: default to not writing IEOT section Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-20 13:07               ` Ben Peart
2018-11-26 19:59                 ` Stefan Beller
2018-11-26 21:47                   ` Ben Peart
2018-11-26 22:02                     ` Stefan Beller
2018-11-27  0:50                   ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-20  6:12             ` [PATCH 3/5] index: do not warn about unrecognized extensions Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-20  6:14             ` [PATCH 4/5] index: make index.threads=true enable ieot and eoie Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-20 13:24               ` Ben Peart
2018-11-20  6:15             ` [PATCH 5/5] index: offer advice for unknown index extensions Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-20  9:26               ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-11-20 13:30                 ` Ben Peart
2018-11-21  0:22                   ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-21  0:39                     ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-21  0:44                       ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-21  5:01                       ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-21  5:04                         ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-21  5:15                         ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-21  5:31                           ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-21  1:03                     ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-21  4:23                       ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-21  4:57                         ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-21  9:30                       ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason [this message]
2018-11-13  0:40     ` [PATCH 3/3] index: do not warn about unrecognized extensions Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-13  1:10       ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-13 15:25       ` Ben Peart
2018-11-14  3:24       ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-14 18:19         ` Ben Peart

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