From: "Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason" <email@example.com> To: Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget <firstname.lastname@example.org> Cc: email@example.com, firstname.lastname@example.org, email@example.com, firstname.lastname@example.org, email@example.com, firstname.lastname@example.org, Andrei Rybak <email@example.com>, Felipe Contreras <firstname.lastname@example.org>, Robert Karszniewicz <email@example.com>, Jeff King <firstname.lastname@example.org>, "Kerry, Richard" <email@example.com>, Phillip Susi <firstname.lastname@example.org>, Johannes Schindelin <Johannes.Schindelin@gmx.de>, Bagas Sanjaya <email@example.com>, Derrick Stolee <firstname.lastname@example.org>, Derrick Stolee <email@example.com> Subject: Re: [PATCH v3 4/4] CodingGuidelines: recommend singular they Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 18:19:53 +0200 [thread overview] Message-ID: <firstname.lastname@example.org> (raw) In-Reply-To: <email@example.com> On Tue, Jun 15 2021, Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget wrote: > [...] > * References to fictional people with clear genders (e.g. Alice and > Bob). I mentioned in the feedback on an earlier round that aside from your goals, these would be better rewritten. I've just submitted a series to do that; perhaps you can look at that and see if you think there's still a reason to explicitly exclude these. > * Sample text used in test cases (e.g t3702, t6432). FWIW that's another unaddressed-by-you question I had in an earlier round. > [...] > diff --git a/Documentation/CodingGuidelines b/Documentation/CodingGuidelines > index e3af089ecf26..0282f836548a 100644 > --- a/Documentation/CodingGuidelines > +++ b/Documentation/CodingGuidelines > @@ -551,6 +551,34 @@ Writing Documentation: > documentation, please see the documentation-related advice in the > Documentation/SubmittingPatches file). > > + In order to ensure the documentation is inclusive, avoid assuming > + that an unspecified example person is male or female, and think > + twice before using "he", "him", "she", or "her". Here are some > + tips to avoid use of gendered pronouns: > + > + - Removing the example person might make the sentence more > + clear and efficient. Instead of saying "The programmer > + chooses between X and Y as she sees fit", it is clearer to > + say "Valid choices are X and Y". > + > + - If you need to talk about an example person, then try using > + second-person to allow the reader to be that example. For > + example, "If you want X to happen, you'd pass option Y", > + instead of "If the user wants X to happen, she'd ..."). > + Alternatively, replace the single example with more than one > + person and use plural "they", such as "Interested readers > + can read 'git log -p README' to learn the history in their > + ample spare time" instead of "an interested reader" learning > + in "his" spare time). > + > + - If you absolutely need to refer to an example person that is > + third-person singluar, you may resort to "singular they" (e.g. > + "A contributor asks their upstream to pull from them"). Note > + that this sounds ungrammatical and unnatural to those who > + learned English as a second language in some parts of the > + world, so should be avoided unless the earlier techniques > + fail to improve the sentence. > + > Every user-visible change should be reflected in the documentation. > The same general rule as for code applies -- imitate the existing > conventions. In the same E-Mail that you copied the original version of this new text from, Junio suggested, mostly in reference to my : I tend to agree that Ævar's approach to guidelines is to cover more general readability tips, not necessarily focusing on avoidance of gendered pronouns, let alone encouraging of "singular they". I think that is overall a good approach to advance the "let's make sure the document is easier to read by everybody" goal than mechanical "he and she are bad, let's use they" does. To be fair he does go on to say something that suggests to also go for a version of your approach here, i.e. that we still have some reference to "they" over "he" and "she". I've got no problem with that, but he also said (comments in  are mine): If we were to go that route [(of copying Junio's version from )], I think the first two points [(i.e. the first two bullet-points you incorporated above)] (which I didn't give enough thought to be even called a "draft") should be replaced with something like what Ævar wrote in his write-up. So your version here does none of that, and we're mostly left with advice about what not to do in the demonstrably obscure edge case of gendered language in our docs (as evidenced by the diffstat). But we aren't helping contributors much with with positive examples of what to do unrelated to that, i.e. for documentation they could actually be expected to write or maintain. I.e. general prose guidelines for common the cases of discussing command-line options, program behavior, user interaction etc. Anyway, I don't think I'll be participating in this topic any further. It seems you're not interested in pursuing alternate approaches that accomplish your goals, or in responding to specific point-by-point feedback on your series from myself and others. I do think it would be a much better and respectful use of everyone's time on this ML if you clearly stated your unwillingness to deviate from the narrow approach in the initial version of a series you're submitting. Maybe I'm wrong and you are willing to incorporate something like more general prose that accomplishes most or all of your narrow goals as a side-effect, but right now it seems you're not. If we're going to make some use of the collective time spent by a lot of people on-list reading the documentation you're suggesting to change, that'll have to be done in a series that would textually conflict with yours (and which Junio would need to clean up), or in something that would build on top of your more narrowly focused work. 1. https://firstname.lastname@example.org/ 2. https://lore.kernel.org/git/cover-0.6-00000000000-20210615T161330Zemail@example.com/ 3. https://firstname.lastname@example.org/ 4. https://email@example.com/
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-06-15 16:44 UTC|newest] Thread overview: 124+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top 2021-06-07 16:57 [PATCH 0/4] Use singular "they" when appropriate Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget 2021-06-07 16:57 ` [PATCH 1/4] Documentation: use singular they " Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget 2021-06-07 17:09 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 2021-06-07 17:32 ` Derrick Stolee 2021-06-07 17:42 ` Andrei Rybak 2021-06-07 18:21 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 2021-06-10 7:44 ` Johannes Schindelin 2021-06-10 14:35 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-07 21:36 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-09 18:47 ` Phillip Susi 2021-06-09 20:26 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-11 15:40 ` Phillip Susi 2021-06-11 17:03 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-10 18:30 ` Derrick Stolee 2021-06-11 0:16 ` Junio C Hamano 2021-06-11 16:00 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-12 14:02 ` Phillip Susi 2021-06-08 1:18 ` Junio C Hamano 2021-06-08 8:51 ` Kerry, Richard 2021-06-08 23:21 ` Junio C Hamano 2021-06-09 13:13 ` Derrick Stolee 2021-06-10 3:11 ` Junio C Hamano 2021-06-08 17:33 ` Emily Shaffer 2021-06-08 18:03 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-09 13:44 ` Kerry, Richard 2021-06-09 17:44 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-25 14:30 ` Kerry, Richard 2021-06-09 4:48 ` Junio C Hamano 2021-06-10 8:18 ` Johannes Schindelin 2021-06-10 14:42 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-14 22:10 ` Robert Karszniewicz 2021-06-07 16:57 ` [PATCH 2/4] *: use singular they in comments Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget 2021-06-07 17:12 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 2021-06-07 17:20 ` Derrick Stolee 2021-06-10 8:20 ` Johannes Schindelin 2021-06-07 19:02 ` Junio C Hamano 2021-06-07 21:44 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-08 17:36 ` Emily Shaffer 2021-06-07 16:57 ` [PATCH 3/4] *: fix typos Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget 2021-06-08 17:37 ` Emily Shaffer 2021-06-10 8:36 ` Johannes Schindelin 2021-06-10 19:53 ` Derrick Stolee 2021-06-11 9:55 ` Johannes Schindelin 2021-06-07 16:57 ` [PATCH 4/4] CodingGuidelines: recommend singular they Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget 2021-06-07 18:31 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 2021-06-08 1:47 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-07 18:56 ` Junio C Hamano 2021-06-07 19:05 ` Derrick Stolee 2021-06-08 0:05 ` Junio C Hamano 2021-06-10 21:34 ` brian m. carlson 2021-06-10 8:39 ` Johannes Schindelin 2021-06-07 20:00 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-09 18:29 ` Phillip Susi 2021-06-09 20:18 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-07 20:20 ` Robert Karszniewicz 2021-06-07 22:18 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-08 7:10 ` Jeff King 2021-06-08 8:11 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-09 13:23 ` Derrick Stolee 2021-06-09 15:20 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-10 22:06 ` brian m. carlson 2021-06-11 16:11 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-08 17:39 ` Emily Shaffer 2021-06-09 4:44 ` Junio C Hamano 2021-06-09 13:27 ` Derrick Stolee 2021-06-07 20:10 ` [PATCH 0/4] Use singular "they" when appropriate Felipe Contreras 2021-06-09 13:54 ` [PATCH v2 " Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget 2021-06-09 13:54 ` [PATCH v2 1/4] Documentation: use singular they " Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget 2021-06-09 15:33 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-09 13:54 ` [PATCH v2 2/4] *: use singular they in comments Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget 2021-06-09 15:41 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-09 13:54 ` [PATCH v2 3/4] *: fix typos Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget 2021-06-09 13:54 ` [PATCH v2 4/4] CodingGuidelines: recommend singular they Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget 2021-06-09 15:50 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-09 15:44 ` [PATCH v2 0/4] Use singular "they" when appropriate Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 2021-06-09 17:22 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-10 2:03 ` Junio C Hamano 2021-06-10 2:28 ` Junio C Hamano 2021-06-10 3:30 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-10 22:32 ` brian m. carlson 2021-06-10 22:58 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 2021-06-11 16:32 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-11 17:18 ` Derrick Stolee 2021-06-11 20:38 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-13 7:17 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 2021-06-15 6:02 ` Junio C Hamano 2021-06-15 13:36 ` Derrick Stolee 2021-06-15 17:03 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-14 0:47 ` Junio C Hamano 2021-06-15 14:11 ` [PATCH v3 0/4] Avoid gendered pronouns Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget 2021-06-15 14:11 ` [PATCH v3 1/4] doc: avoid using the gender of other people Felipe Contreras via GitGitGadget 2021-06-15 14:11 ` [PATCH v3 2/4] comments: avoid using the gender of our users Felipe Contreras via GitGitGadget 2021-06-15 14:11 ` [PATCH v3 3/4] *: fix typos Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget 2021-06-15 14:11 ` [PATCH v3 4/4] CodingGuidelines: recommend singular they Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget 2021-06-15 16:19 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason [this message] 2021-06-15 17:26 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-16 2:47 ` Junio C Hamano 2021-06-16 5:06 ` Junio C Hamano 2021-06-16 9:26 ` Bagas Sanjaya 2021-06-16 17:44 ` Derrick Stolee 2021-06-16 19:54 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 2021-06-16 23:22 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-17 0:09 ` Junio C Hamano 2021-06-17 13:22 ` Derrick Stolee 2021-06-17 14:53 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 2021-06-17 17:06 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-17 15:25 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-18 0:26 ` brian m. carlson 2021-06-18 16:12 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-17 15:23 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-17 15:58 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 2021-06-18 0:53 ` brian m. carlson 2021-06-18 7:24 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 2021-06-18 16:40 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-19 7:03 ` Junio C Hamano 2021-06-28 22:32 ` Junio C Hamano 2021-06-29 1:31 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-29 1:53 ` Derrick Stolee 2021-06-29 12:29 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 2021-06-17 15:12 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-17 14:46 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-15 17:08 ` Felipe Contreras 2021-06-12 4:40 ` [PATCH 0/4] Use singular "they" when appropriate Bagas Sanjaya 2021-06-12 14:19 ` Phillip Susi
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