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From: Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com>
To: Jeff King <peff@peff.net>
Cc: Johannes Schindelin <Johannes.Schindelin@gmx.de>,
	David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org>,
	git@vger.kernel.org, users@kernel.org
Subject: Re: [kernel.org users] [RFD] On deprecating "git-foo" for builtins
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:39:30 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <7vr68b8q9p.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20080826145719.GB5046@coredump.intra.peff.net> (Jeff King's message of "Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:57:19 -0400")

Jeff King <peff@peff.net> writes:

> On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 04:41:57PM -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:
>
>> > Umm.  What exactly makes you feel you should ignore the discussions we had 
>> > around the issues on the git and msysgit mailing list?
>> 
>> Well, this was partly my fault, as I did not make it clear in this part
>> that beating the horse that has been dead for two years is not a
>> productive way to spend out time.  I however did, in the part David did
>> not quote, try to make it clear:
>> 
>>   That's all history now anyway.  We should try to do better the next time,
>>   which is much more important, and that is the topic of this message.
>
> I don't want to stir up this discussion too much; I am sure you have
> many more important things to be working on. But I did want to make one
> observation.
>
> One side of the argument, I see a lot of "I would prefer it this way."
> And on the other side I see a lot of "this discussion is already
> history" and "but I do not care personally that much."
>
> It makes me wonder why nobody has said "no, really, I prefer it without
> the programs in /bin." Are they simply confident that the decision has
> been made, and don't feel the need to say something?

To me, one of the two saddest part of this story is this.

I was among the "don't change anything, get used to it just like old
timers are already used to" camp, when people said that having many
commands in /usr/bin (or $HOME/bin) would scare people and pushed for this
change, around the end of 2005 through early 2006.  The pros-and-cons
wasn't clearly cut-and-dried.  Moving out of /usr/bin has slight technical
merits (e.g. "bash completion not showing 150+ commands but only selected
Porcelains", "not scaring people off", "dashless form is needed if you
want to use global options", and "moving away from dashed form will
eventually let us get rid of copies on systems without hardlinks even from
under /usr/libexec/git-core").  But I do not think the advantage was so
great.

When I hear something like what David Woodhouse said in this thread, I
should be feeling "People -- those of you who claimed to be the silent
majority -- see, I told you so!  This is a very bad move".

But I can't.  People who complain _now_ just annoy me even more.  Why
weren't you defending the backward compatibility with me, which you seem
to value it so much, perhaps even more than I did back then?  Why are you
wasting our time bringing it up again, instead of joining the discussion
when it _mattered_ back then?

And I still think there is no great reason to pick one way or the other.
Having everything in /usr/bin does not have any better reason than "it has
been that way from the beginning", and that certainly is not a reason
strong enough to revert this anymore, as the opposition now has "the
latest and greatest was shipped with the new layout" which is an equally
valid argument.

Another, even more sad part of this story is that the thread was confused
into talking about the change that has already happened, which is a total
offtopic, and wasted even more time from people.

Read the subject line again, and notice that we are not talking about
/usr/bin vs /usr/libexec/git-core; the request-for-discussion was about
removing "git-add" and friends from /usr/libexec/git-core/, so that we do
not have to even have these many hardlinks there.  Except for Linus (and
obviously myself who started the thread), I saw nobody expressed any
opinion on it.

  parent reply	other threads:[~2008-08-26 20:40 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 193+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2008-08-24  3:33 [RFD] On deprecating "git-foo" for builtins Junio C Hamano
2008-08-24  4:23 ` [kernel.org users] " Linus Torvalds
2008-08-24  4:54   ` Imran M Yousuf
2008-08-24  8:40 ` Stefan Richter
2008-08-25 11:49 ` David Woodhouse
2008-08-25 12:17   ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2008-08-25 12:43   ` Andi Kleen
2008-08-26  3:00     ` A Large Angry SCM
2008-08-25 13:22   ` Ben Collins
2008-08-25 14:38     ` Felipe Contreras
2008-08-25 18:19   ` Johannes Schindelin
2008-08-25 23:41     ` Junio C Hamano
2008-08-26 12:27       ` David Woodhouse
2008-08-26 14:57       ` Jeff King
2008-08-26 15:34         ` Kristian Høgsberg
2008-08-26 15:59           ` David Woodhouse
2008-08-26 16:04             ` Matthias Kestenholz
2008-08-26 16:25               ` Petr Baudis
2008-08-26 16:45                 ` Andi Kleen
2008-08-26 17:04                   ` Jeff King
2008-08-26 17:05                   ` Linus Torvalds
2008-08-26 17:27                     ` Andi Kleen
2008-08-27  6:04                       ` Ulrich Windl
2008-08-26 17:10                   ` Petr Baudis
2008-08-26 17:11                     ` [PATCH] bash completion: Hide more plumbing commands Petr Baudis
2008-08-26 17:24                       ` Shawn O. Pearce
2008-08-26 17:43                         ` Jakub Narebski
2008-08-26 18:25                         ` Junio C Hamano
2008-08-26 18:27                           ` Shawn O. Pearce
2008-08-26 19:04                           ` Daniel Barkalow
2008-08-26 19:07                             ` Shawn O. Pearce
2008-08-26 19:23                               ` Daniel Barkalow
2008-09-03 22:23                           ` Petr Baudis
2008-09-03 22:31                             ` Petr Baudis
2008-08-26 17:38                       ` Jakub Narebski
2008-09-03 17:56                         ` Petr Baudis
2008-09-04  4:57                           ` Junio C Hamano
2008-08-26 21:53                       ` Matthieu Moy
2008-08-27  9:09                         ` Karl Hasselström
2008-08-26 17:12                     ` [kernel.org users] [RFD] On deprecating "git-foo" for builtins Shawn O. Pearce
2008-08-26 17:16                       ` Jeff King
2008-08-26 17:47                         ` Nguyen Thai Ngoc Duy
2008-08-26 21:06                         ` Willy Tarreau
2008-08-27 20:24                           ` Jeff Garzik
2008-08-27 20:27                             ` Jeff King
2008-08-27 20:38                               ` Jeff Garzik
2008-08-27 20:53                                 ` Jeff King
2008-08-27 21:05                                 ` Matthew Wilcox
2008-08-27 21:13                                   ` Adrian Bunk
2008-08-27 21:22                                     ` Jeff King
2008-08-27 22:29                                       ` Adrian Bunk
2008-08-27 21:23                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2008-08-27 23:49                                   ` Jeff Garzik
2008-08-28  6:51                                     ` Ingo Molnar
2008-08-28  7:46                                       ` git-show vs git-log (or: git show vs git log) Dominik Brodowski
2008-08-28 14:44                                       ` [kernel.org users] [RFD] On deprecating "git-foo" for builtins Alex Riesen
2008-08-28  5:43                                 ` Mike Hommey
2008-08-27 20:50                             ` Linus Torvalds
2008-08-27  6:00                   ` Ulrich Windl
2008-08-27  7:59                     ` H. Peter Anvin
2008-08-27 19:14                     ` Matthew Wilcox
2008-08-27 19:43                     ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-27 19:50                       ` Jeff King
2008-08-27 19:54                         ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-27 20:43                           ` H. Peter Anvin
2008-08-27 21:19                             ` Steven Rostedt
2008-08-27 23:27                               ` Junio C Hamano
2008-08-27 23:53                                 ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-28  0:05                                   ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-28  9:04                                     ` Petr Baudis
2008-08-28 10:33                                       ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-28 10:42                                         ` David Woodhouse
2008-08-28 19:56                                           ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-28 10:47                                         ` Petr Baudis
2008-08-28 16:35                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2008-08-28 19:24                                           ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-28 19:52                                             ` Teemu Likonen
2008-08-28 20:23                                               ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-28 20:44                                                 ` Petr Baudis
2008-08-28 20:57                                                   ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-28 21:23                                                 ` Jeff King
2008-08-28 21:41                                                   ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-28 21:53                                                     ` Petr Baudis
2008-08-28 21:59                                                     ` Jeff King
2008-08-28 22:33                                                       ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-28 23:04                                                         ` Jeff King
2008-08-28 23:22                                                           ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-28 23:36                                                             ` Jeff King
2008-08-28 23:24                                                           ` Junio C Hamano
2008-08-28 23:28                                                             ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-28 23:30                                                             ` Petr Baudis
2008-08-28 23:41                                                             ` git-* in test scripts (was On deprecating "git-foo" for builtins) Jeff King
2008-08-29  0:04                                                               ` git-* in test scripts Junio C Hamano
2008-08-29  0:10                                                                 ` Jeff King
2008-08-29  7:51                                                           ` [kernel.org users] [RFD] On deprecating "git-foo" for builtins Andreas Ericsson
2008-08-29  8:05                                                             ` Matthieu Moy
2008-08-29  8:23                                                               ` Andreas Ericsson
2008-08-29  8:27                                                               ` Matthias Kestenholz
2008-08-29  9:02                                                                 ` Matthieu Moy
2008-08-28 23:12                                                         ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-29 15:24                                                           ` Aidan Van Dyk
2008-08-29 16:11                                                             ` Felipe Contreras
2008-08-29 16:24                                                               ` Aidan Van Dyk
2008-08-29 16:28                                                                 ` Felipe Contreras
2008-08-29 16:41                                                                   ` Aidan Van Dyk
2008-08-30  8:13                                                                   ` Andreas Ericsson
2008-08-28 23:31                                                         ` Jakub Narebski
2008-08-29  9:33                                                   ` Wincent Colaiuta
2008-08-30 13:24                                                     ` Steven Rostedt
2008-08-30 13:50                                                       ` Teemu Likonen
2008-08-30 14:08                                                         ` Steven Rostedt
2008-08-26 17:07                 ` Jeff King
2008-08-26 17:42                   ` Teemu Likonen
2008-08-26 16:17             ` Kristian Høgsberg
2008-08-26 16:23             ` Jean Delvare
2008-08-26 16:50               ` Takashi Iwai
2008-08-26 17:20                 ` Jean Delvare
2008-08-27  7:42                   ` Andreas Ericsson
2008-08-27  8:21                     ` Jean Delvare
2008-08-27 15:14                       ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2008-08-26 20:14               ` H. Peter Anvin
2008-08-27  7:42                 ` Jean Delvare
2008-08-27  8:32                 ` [kernel.org users] " Andreas Ericsson
2008-08-26 17:03             ` Linus Torvalds
2008-08-26 17:29               ` Bruce Stephens
2008-08-26 17:35                 ` Petr Baudis
2008-08-26 17:38                   ` Bruce Stephens
2008-08-28 15:21                   ` Johannes Schindelin
2008-08-26 17:34               ` Takashi Iwai
2008-08-26 18:09               ` Dominik Brodowski
2008-08-26 18:19                 ` Linus Torvalds
2008-08-26 18:55                   ` Al Viro
2008-08-26 19:04                     ` Linus Torvalds
2008-08-26 19:22                       ` Al Viro
2008-08-26 19:11                     ` Teemu Likonen
2008-08-28 15:24                     ` Johannes Schindelin
2008-08-26 21:08                   ` Dominik Brodowski
2008-08-26 21:28                   ` Junio C Hamano
2008-08-26 21:38                     ` Linus Torvalds
2008-08-26 23:21                   ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-27 15:27                     ` Steven Rostedt
2008-08-27 23:09                       ` Russell King
2008-08-27 23:53                         ` Stefan Richter
2008-08-28 19:19                           ` Russell King
2008-08-28 20:10                             ` Junio C Hamano
2008-08-28 20:30                               ` Matthew Wilcox
2008-08-28 20:36                               ` Petr Baudis
2008-08-28 20:57                             ` Stefan Richter
2008-08-28 21:05                               ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-28  1:25                         ` Steven Rostedt
2008-08-27  0:34               ` A Large Angry SCM
2008-08-27 12:23           ` Krzysztof Halasa
2008-08-26 20:39         ` Junio C Hamano [this message]
2008-08-26 21:03           ` Jeff King
2008-08-27  2:24             ` Jay Soffian
2008-08-27 14:49               ` H. Peter Anvin
2008-08-26 23:36           ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-26 23:45           ` Nicolas Pitre
2008-08-28 15:32             ` Johannes Schindelin
2008-08-27  0:17           ` Matthew Wilcox
2008-08-27 22:52             ` Russell King
2008-08-28 15:34               ` Johannes Schindelin
2008-08-28 16:10                 ` Matthew Wilcox
2008-08-28 19:18                   ` Johannes Schindelin
2008-08-28 19:27                     ` Matthew Wilcox
2008-08-27 23:38             ` Junio C Hamano
2008-08-28  0:09               ` Felipe Contreras
2008-08-28  0:44                 ` Jeff Garzik
2008-08-28  7:14               ` David Woodhouse
2008-08-28  8:17                 ` Junio C Hamano
2008-08-28  8:32                   ` David Woodhouse
2008-08-28  8:57                     ` Felipe Contreras
2008-08-28 11:54                       ` Al Viro
2008-08-28 13:15                         ` Felipe Contreras
2008-08-28 13:34                           ` Felipe Contreras
2008-08-28 13:45                             ` Paolo Ciarrocchi
2008-08-28 16:37                             ` Linus Torvalds
2008-08-28 20:42                               ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-28 23:03                                 ` Jakub Narebski
2008-08-28 23:14                                   ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-28 23:45                                     ` Jeff King
2008-08-28 23:55                                       ` Perry Wagle
2008-08-29 14:12                               ` Felipe Contreras
2008-08-28 14:06                     ` Nicolas Pitre
2008-08-28 14:13                       ` Nicolas Pitre
2008-08-28 16:17                     ` Linus Torvalds
2008-08-26  2:58   ` A Large Angry SCM
2008-08-26  7:17     ` Jean Delvare
2008-08-26 11:12       ` A Large Angry SCM
2008-08-26 11:56         ` Stefan Richter
2008-08-26 21:00           ` Steven Rostedt
2008-08-26 14:28         ` Shawn O. Pearce
2008-08-26 14:46       ` Jeff King

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