From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.6 (2021-04-09) on dcvr.yhbt.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-ASN: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=3.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,BODY_8BITS, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS shortcircuit=no autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.6 Received: from out1.vger.email (out1.vger.email [IPv6:2620:137:e000::1:20]) by dcvr.yhbt.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 027641F47C for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2023 09:46:51 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: dcvr.yhbt.net; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20210112 header.b=WpFLEpxl; dkim-atps=neutral Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S231389AbjALJp1 (ORCPT ); Thu, 12 Jan 2023 04:45:27 -0500 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:52910 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S230422AbjALJoZ (ORCPT ); Thu, 12 Jan 2023 04:44:25 -0500 Received: from mail-ej1-x62b.google.com (mail-ej1-x62b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62b]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED55552C50 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2023 01:41:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ej1-x62b.google.com with SMTP id ss4so36055037ejb.11 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2023 01:41:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to :user-agent:references:date:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=WDotL6puxMqBwsDKvTZpEw6dMcv4xKP1ZctGf5bj4WY=; b=WpFLEpxlfOV/dBoKVFVotVEPPQeoR0Sp6eAeHO42OK8WFBKb4EHY3yCOIUbQvAzt0w l3zFvJbNebpzzIuIYWuf6khQ1uuvgWsknVB7Sn74jF+Mo/4TKeT9xrflr5TKPsTrmbKv QSGD2x3jeGeSrZFyIxTWyVfy9GWOV9oRvJIAW8fueG58bjbxbtvfYgaHBOCh7NYtR1eS dBd+JYcgFDPnDY6UU5gO8+HSiU6Spu3VLfBkEkBmMZxiC+xdjaNZEVUNTCaz9mfAFRrm JcBRlD9gCwBK0kkE4sFNc/oCp2Tt1XWKFiaZ7vvxj6DLk8oWhV+I4ZBwlb67MlMmpv2O kHvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to :user-agent:references:date:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=WDotL6puxMqBwsDKvTZpEw6dMcv4xKP1ZctGf5bj4WY=; b=pRyh+RjHhxEVxTFdrGKmh/d4+vd0rEmlR2gEJwvEEeBal6E10GpwJZgZ1Jj4TE+IeG RvO5gqcBlW907Vrhx+cfFzfOVdRjZFiPVjZg6YrJTeaBCUjOKheZT1jK8iWv7vqaQ/8a QriFWbpNmbSKWR08u5mcvsS5Qi5cd1dyGjYjvJuTsa/ONnOTpTHYXRksH6gLqJQTvgqY pFPzxWlrTkRJZfV9U/dFVHrlMlhcwfzHl6WTaeEnOXS9j/9VWxJMqw/kWp+KD48WcEk3 LYZmeTzF0OoCjLfMe0GvEcoPA/6AkvmHcbdLxdc43n6qkmiebv53jhwnACYKxXhd4uhd k+Ug== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kqDIQC4aNF+UgHeKi8bDladln66D2Jk5I5o4kZs2Y9Q+bja0ZHj zw3UFbTZU9gZARfcGW1QSopTo0GWSYo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXsmpX1N738OZZbxvHP89pVxNA1c6MsBeRO6mmtO3qyPx4WWpKk1gHvKFH1pwHbX12jFLzjvSQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:8d01:b0:858:703e:e4e2 with SMTP id tc1-20020a1709078d0100b00858703ee4e2mr8039625ejc.42.1673516514376; Thu, 12 Jan 2023 01:41:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmgdl (j84076.upc-j.chello.nl. [24.132.84.76]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l18-20020a1709063d3200b0084d4a60b3d6sm4397654ejf.117.2023.01.12.01.41.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 12 Jan 2023 01:41:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from avar by gmgdl with local (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1pFu5p-0006YI-1F; Thu, 12 Jan 2023 10:41:53 +0100 From: =?utf-8?B?w4Z2YXIgQXJuZmrDtnLDsA==?= Bjarmason To: demerphq Cc: Filip Lipien , "git@vger.kernel.org" , "torvalds@linux-foundation.org" Subject: Re: Request to remove Junio C Hamano as the Git Maintainer Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2023 10:30:39 +0100 References: <7hfRSnKTRnT4uJh5Pok8U8gfLm_NXzCS6w_7_Rc9OH3a9Lv8hpjySZqxDglBFC-fTOdZHi-ODCihiEHlQD9nIhUmld5jYvRx_JvB0z2IAL0=@164.ooo> User-agent: Debian GNU/Linux bookworm/sid; Emacs 28.2; mu4e 1.9.0 In-reply-to: Message-ID: <230112.86bkn42iou.gmgdl@evledraar.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: git@vger.kernel.org On Tue, Jan 03 2023, demerphq wrote: > On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 at 19:52, Filip Lipien wrote: >> >> There are more than one million questions on Stackoverflow related to th= e usage of Git. >> This is not normal. >> >> Git is in its current state not a tool that's made for humans. > > Any tool sufficiently advanced to be useful to experts will from time > to time surprise beginners who lack context knowledge. That is normal. > Designing tools to be unsurprising for beginners usually just ends up > limiting, frustrating or surprising the experts. > >> It's realistic to assume, that millions of working hours were wasted due= to his ignorance of developer experience. >> The financial damage goes into the billions. > > Yeah, business has adopted it wholesale because it loses them > billions. That makes sense. Not. > >> >> I hereby request the removal of Junio C Hamano =E6=BF=B1=E9=87=8E=E7=B4= =94 as the Git Maintainer. > > That is just rude. Having a free meal in a restaurant does not give > you the right to demand the head-cook steps down because you didn't > like the way it was laid out on the plate. Whatever it was you > intended to achieve with this post, this is not the way to go about > it. > > Normally I would ignore a post like this as trolling, but others have > engaged, and I wanted to express some support for Junio as I know > these kind of things can get even the thickest skinned hacker down. > > So to Junio: Thank you for your contributions. I give you strength to > ignore the trolls. I have stated this previously, but thanks again > for add --interactive, that is a super useful tool which I use and > appreciate pretty much every single day. Yes, thanks Junio! I agree on the "trolling" front, and just to concede part of that ill-phrased point: As a long-term user & contributor of git I agree that there's lots of cases where git's UX is bad. Some have noted in this thread that it's partially inherent complexity, that's also true. Any tool supporting a DVCS workflow will probably always be more complex than a CVCS (although I'd argue that's largely an illusion, as it just pushes complexity for e.g. conflicts outside of the system). But part of it is just that git's UX is crappy in places. Often there's a good reason (e.g. backwards compatibility), but often there isn't. Now, is that the fault of Junio or this development community? I don't think so. I think it would be possible to have a maintainer (e.g. with some BOFH attitude) that would be unreasonably hostile to user friendlyness. But it's really not that, it's just more mundane reasons. E.g.: * Much of the interface being organically grown (and some committee design would have had its own issues, or never gotten off the ground). Fixing inconsistencies is possible, but runs into backwards compatibility, creating more confusion by change etc. * Lots of cases where the UX could be improved, even trivially. Some places where we could add advise(), or otherwise improve/fix messaging come to mind (those almost never impact backwards compatibility). But working on all of those requires volunteer time etc. I'd also like Git's UX improved, and don't want anyone to get the impression that such changes aren't welcome here. As someone who's pushed for much of that (from the i18n subsystem, to various new advise() etc.) my experience is that Junio's been very receptive to those sort of changes, and helpful in getting them accepted & released.