From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on dcvr.yhbt.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-ASN: AS31976 209.132.180.0/23 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.3 required=3.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,DKIMWL_WL_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FSL_HELO_FAKE, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_NONE, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL shortcircuit=no autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [209.132.180.67]) by dcvr.yhbt.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B141F5A2 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2020 22:13:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1727560AbgBFWNM (ORCPT ); Thu, 6 Feb 2020 17:13:12 -0500 Received: from mail-pj1-f68.google.com ([209.85.216.68]:36124 "EHLO mail-pj1-f68.google.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1727450AbgBFWNM (ORCPT ); Thu, 6 Feb 2020 17:13:12 -0500 Received: by mail-pj1-f68.google.com with SMTP id gv17so34837pjb.1 for ; Thu, 06 Feb 2020 14:13:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to :user-agent; bh=4xD8FxAJRFjDemiyKyCwQZuR3CwuP7rDIpCoeHJR4B4=; b=p62H3bxRrfvRqL9O22zZXs+XiVQzn4J58zWxhMnLRZVkGiKQYKTI3ElAU+aJY/tTz9 SzR56CYXs+ysyZdTMASxyhvHo8phM1bvE9TdlM8DA6MZ7IfPMvfrO4yjHK0AKXL6s20Z E9z3KrZ64041Jdx3LMYa2/9Uc9nrpmYJp8FapFmorlXxzdiO4TA7mLuC5OAF1yJooKvZ HCLrQwT56RGPNSI+FLLT1B9/LJf1YNVqw+Oqs4Qg3E+B4iBBO9n6mtGv0fKHDCka5sNc bFFs/0swSYqpqqfJbYyF2VTLUf3tTZ+gaZ7GXeJdQP749FJSZShruqA/33x5xirHj03R w0hQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding :in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=4xD8FxAJRFjDemiyKyCwQZuR3CwuP7rDIpCoeHJR4B4=; b=sZArENlCVzGaYj6GinJp1VNaNQXoGE4mAv+9RI8SJ7+MGHmZfXeQI1IWBVmqDR7wwf 0hHRkk2FFZAes9vkDw3bqs1JW3kISr2opKYa+HvsyEoKP3PumPoytMMqNpYorwjcgGya w3KAOoA05vc32AvBSSoMJl05XEEs6G9DHMHQo6216NJBLRSBoEisS3BiBYpqYaZXsFfj obPD5seACx7F/I5OhpnYeSD3WN8qIDQsK7pCFpU11o5TkW4z4AKwP6s9U1BgQ1IqrgOa tdhhOIdBksUIzYI+IdT+s40AB+ren/xKE/Xu/Gewt3ruyY5/VEhgIjYXdtsQzouslKyv mncw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUemG6Xo+fZ3rqCA7B0dNEZOJZehLMs3D+6BXWMHpMcVRelI8uB QbCMI4TxMHI4KBCLPoZmyV0FLQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxHHcMPa/Q5VJxoPaD8fOe0LrPVwoIiwJf6aa3UHxRIbHzvC8AwnWHSJDoAvrVSijF73myIIQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:7d07:: with SMTP id g7mr7356928pjl.17.1581027191166; Thu, 06 Feb 2020 14:13:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from google.com ([2620:15c:2ce:0:231c:11cc:aa0a:6dc5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a35sm378683pgl.20.2020.02.06.14.13.09 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 06 Feb 2020 14:13:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 14:13:05 -0800 From: Emily Shaffer To: Junio C Hamano Cc: SZEDER =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=E1bor?= , git@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: [PATCH v7] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help Message-ID: <20200206221305.GB190927@google.com> References: <20200124210148.220007-1-emilyshaffer@google.com> <20200124212602.74194-1-emilyshaffer@google.com> <20200124215628.GI6837@szeder.dev> <20200206010704.GN10482@szeder.dev> <20200206194929.GA190927@google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20200206194929.GA190927@google.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Sender: git-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: git@vger.kernel.org On Thu, Feb 06, 2020 at 11:49:29AM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote: > On Thu, Feb 06, 2020 at 08:33:54AM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote: > > SZEDER Gábor writes: > > > > > On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 03:44:40PM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote: > > > > > >> ... The more important part, from my point of view, > > >> is that we offer choices (the proposed doc update illustrates > > >> three). > > > > > > I remember a discussion about whether that list and its archive should > > > be open or closed, and I agree that offering choices is good. > > > However, since that mentoring list requires registration, we have to > > > carefully consider how to present it to newcomers. > > > > > > Openly accessible knowledge is a fundamental value, and it's the > > > foundation of open source. Therefore, we definitely should not direct > > > newcomers to a closed mailing list as the first option, it can only be > > > a fallback. > > > > I am not that dogmatic ;-) I would be very unhappy and probably > > would not have joined if the main development community was closed, > > but I do not think the "knowledge" the "closed mentoring list for > > those who are shy" are meant to impart to newbies will be something > > that will be so well kept secret that are shared among only those in > > the closed list. I expect the mentoring list to be repeating what > > those who graduated "new"-ness consider pretty much common public > > knowledge. > > > > Having said that, my reading did hiccup when queuing Emily's text, > > in that it listed the mentoring list first, and (more problematic) > > the only choice among the three described with a word "great" was > > that one. Also, now I re-read it, the last sentence "You must join > > the group to view messages or post", without explaining why it is > > set up that way is bound to give a wrong impression, I suppose. I > > presume that the reason why those who wanted to make the mentoring > > list closed was because they thought it would be nicer for shysters, > > but if that is the case, it probably is better to spell that out. > > Sure. I think I didn't do so in an effort to be brief. I'll think on > this today and send some suggestions here (rather than rerolling). > > > > > > The text should list git@vger as the first option, since that's the > > > only open mailing list we have, it should clearly emphasize that > > > newcomers are very welcome, and should explicitly encourage them to > > > post their questions here, no matter how trivial or silly they think > > > those questions are, we'll be always glad to answer them. > > > > I have no problem with seeing an expanded invitation to the main > > list. I do not have a strong opinion on the order of three items. > > Me neither, and placing git@vger first does give me an opportunity to > say something like "if you feel worried about asking publicly, this list > is a more private setting" in reference to the mentors list. So that's > an option I could get behind. How about something like this? I was trying to achieve the following goals: - Try to remove bias: - Don't make git@vger sound like a last-ditch effort or scary place. - Don't call git-mentoring@ "great", rather explain why it was created - Don't imply that all contributors who want to help are present on mentoring list, or that all contributors who aren't present on mentoring list don't want to help - just indicate that all contributors on mentoring list do want to help - Explain reasoning around git-mentoring@: - avoiding the public eye (and that's why viewing is restricted) - targeted membership (people joined because they want to help) I'm no professional writer, so I expect there's more work to be done. When we have something we're happy with then I'll send a formal patch. - Emily -- >8 -- --- Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 29 +++++++++++++++------------ 1 file changed, 16 insertions(+), 13 deletions(-) diff --git a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt index 522c75099d..427274df4d 100644 --- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt +++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt @@ -28,11 +28,24 @@ useful additional context: If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places. +==== git@vger.kernel.org + +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. Those interested in +contributing are welcome to post questions here. The Git list requires +plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when replying to +mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can subscribe to +the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with "subscribe git" +in the body. The https://lore.kernel.org/git[archive] of this mailing list is +available to view in a browser. + ==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com] -This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post -questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git -project. You must join the group to view messages or post. +This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and was created as a place to +post questions and receive answers outside of the public eye of the main list. +Veteran contributors who are especially interested in helping mentor newcomers +are present on the list. In order to avoid search indexers, group membership is +required to view messages; anyone can join and no approval is required. ==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode @@ -46,16 +59,6 @@ respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the conversation. -==== git@vger.kernel.org - -This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version -announcements, design discussions, and more take place. The Git list -requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when -replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can -subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with -"subscribe git" in the body. The https://lore.kernel.org/git[archive] of this -mailing list is available to view in a browser. - [[getting-started]] == Getting Started -- 2.25.0.341.g760bfbb309-goog