[PATCH] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[PATCH] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Emily Shaffer]

With https://public-inbox.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
contributors who have questions.

Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
questions there too. Mention some of the conventions in case folks are
unfamiliar with IRC.

Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
contributors, it's possible that no response is found on either forum,
so list the main mailing list as a fallback and mention some of the
conventions.

Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
---
 Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 32 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 1 file changed, 32 insertions(+)

diff --git a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
index 5e9b808f5f..9fe197c98e 100644
--- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
+++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
@@ -23,6 +23,38 @@ useful additional context:
 - `Documentation/SubmittingPatches`
 - `Documentation/howto/new-command.txt`
 
+[[getting-help]]
+=== Getting Help
+
+If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
+
+==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
+
+This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
+questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
+project. You must join the group to view messages or post.
+
+==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
+
+This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
+currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
+in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
+https://colabti.org/irclogger//irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see
+whether someone answered you. IRC does not allow offline private messaging, so
+if you try to private message someone and then log out of IRC, they cannot
+respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
+can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
+conversation.
+
+==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
+
+This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
+announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
+help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. You can join by
+sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with "subscribe git" in the body.
+The Git list requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and
+bottom-posting when replying to mail.
+
 [[getting-started]]
 == Getting Started
 
-- 
2.24.0.432.g9d3f5f5b63-goog

Re: [PATCH] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Denton Liu]

Hi Emily,

On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 01:53:42PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> With https://public-inbox.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
> now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
> contributors who have questions.
> 
> Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
> questions there too. Mention some of the conventions in case folks are
> unfamiliar with IRC.
> 
> Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
> contributors, it's possible that no response is found on either forum,
> so list the main mailing list as a fallback and mention some of the
> conventions.
> 
> Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
> ---
>  Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 32 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>  1 file changed, 32 insertions(+)
> 
> diff --git a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> index 5e9b808f5f..9fe197c98e 100644
> --- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> +++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> @@ -23,6 +23,38 @@ useful additional context:
>  - `Documentation/SubmittingPatches`
>  - `Documentation/howto/new-command.txt`
>  
> +[[getting-help]]
> +=== Getting Help
> +
> +If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
> +
> +==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
> +
> +This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
> +questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
> +project. You must join the group to view messages or post.
> +
> +==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
> +
> +This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
> +currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
> +in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
> +https://colabti.org/irclogger//irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see
> +whether someone answered you. IRC does not allow offline private messaging, so
> +if you try to private message someone and then log out of IRC, they cannot
> +respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
> +can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
> +conversation.
> +
> +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> +
> +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. You can join by
> +sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with "subscribe git" in the body.
> +The Git list requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and
> +bottom-posting when replying to mail.

Perhaps we could explicitly mention that subscribing to the list is
optional and not required to post (especially since we CC everyone
here)? New contributors may be intimidated by the volume of mail going
through here so knowing that they don't have to subscribe might be
helpful.

Thanks,

Denton

> +
>  [[getting-started]]
>  == Getting Started
>  
> -- 
> 2.24.0.432.g9d3f5f5b63-goog
> 

Re: [PATCH] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Emily Shaffer]

On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 02:05:28PM -0800, Denton Liu wrote:
> Hi Emily,
> 
> On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 01:53:42PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> > +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> > +
> > +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> > +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> > +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. You can join by
> > +sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with "subscribe git" in the body.
> > +The Git list requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and
> > +bottom-posting when replying to mail.
> 
> Perhaps we could explicitly mention that subscribing to the list is
> optional and not required to post (especially since we CC everyone
> here)? New contributors may be intimidated by the volume of mail going
> through here so knowing that they don't have to subscribe might be
> helpful.

Yeah, good idea. I'll move the plaintext/posting order rules sentence in
front of the majordomo sentence, and add "optionally" to the beginning
of the majordomo sentence. Thanks.

 - Emily

[PATCH v2] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Emily Shaffer]

With https://public-inbox.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
contributors who have questions.

Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
questions there too. Mention some of the conventions in case folks are
unfamiliar with IRC.

Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
contributors, it's possible that no response is found on either forum,
so list the main mailing list as a fallback and mention some of the
conventions.

Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
---

Reworded the Git mailing list blurb per Denton's recommendation.

 Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 33 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 1 file changed, 33 insertions(+)

diff --git a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
index 5e9b808f5f..90f45b387a 100644
--- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
+++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
@@ -23,6 +23,39 @@ useful additional context:
 - `Documentation/SubmittingPatches`
 - `Documentation/howto/new-command.txt`
 
+[[getting-help]]
+=== Getting Help
+
+If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
+
+==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
+
+This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
+questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
+project. You must join the group to view messages or post.
+
+==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
+
+This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
+currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
+in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
+https://colabti.org/irclogger//irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see
+whether someone answered you. IRC does not allow offline private messaging, so
+if you try to private message someone and then log out of IRC, they cannot
+respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
+can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
+conversation.
+
+==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
+
+This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
+announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
+help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. The Git list
+requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
+replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
+subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
+"subscribe git" in the body.
+
 [[getting-started]]
 == Getting Started
 
-- 
2.24.0.432.g9d3f5f5b63-goog

Re: [PATCH v2] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Johannes Schindelin]

Hi Emily,

On Fri, 15 Nov 2019, Emily Shaffer wrote:

> With https://public-inbox.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
> now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
> contributors who have questions.
>
> Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
> questions there too. Mention some of the conventions in case folks are
> unfamiliar with IRC.
>
> Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
> contributors, it's possible that no response is found on either forum,
> so list the main mailing list as a fallback and mention some of the
> conventions.
>
> Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
> ---

Looks good to me.

Thanks!
Dscho

>
> Reworded the Git mailing list blurb per Denton's recommendation.
>
>  Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 33 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>  1 file changed, 33 insertions(+)
>
> diff --git a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> index 5e9b808f5f..90f45b387a 100644
> --- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> +++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> @@ -23,6 +23,39 @@ useful additional context:
>  - `Documentation/SubmittingPatches`
>  - `Documentation/howto/new-command.txt`
>
> +[[getting-help]]
> +=== Getting Help
> +
> +If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
> +
> +==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
> +
> +This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
> +questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
> +project. You must join the group to view messages or post.
> +
> +==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
> +
> +This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
> +currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
> +in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
> +https://colabti.org/irclogger//irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see
> +whether someone answered you. IRC does not allow offline private messaging, so
> +if you try to private message someone and then log out of IRC, they cannot
> +respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
> +can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
> +conversation.
> +
> +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> +
> +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. The Git list
> +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> +"subscribe git" in the body.
> +
>  [[getting-started]]
>  == Getting Started
>
> --
> 2.24.0.432.g9d3f5f5b63-goog
>
>

Re: [PATCH v2] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Jonathan Nieder]

Emily Shaffer wrote:

> --- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> +++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> @@ -23,6 +23,39 @@ useful additional context:
>  - `Documentation/SubmittingPatches`
>  - `Documentation/howto/new-command.txt`
>  
> +[[getting-help]]
> +=== Getting Help
> +
> +If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
> +
> +==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
> +
> +This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
> +questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
> +project. You must join the group to view messages or post.
> +
> +==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
> +
> +This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
> +currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
> +in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
> +https://colabti.org/irclogger//irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see

optional: https://j.mp/gitdevlog also works and is briefer.

> +whether someone answered you. IRC does not allow offline private messaging, so
> +if you try to private message someone and then log out of IRC, they cannot
> +respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
> +can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
> +conversation.
> +
> +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> +
> +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. The Git list
> +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> +"subscribe git" in the body.
> +

Very nice.

Reviewed-by: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>

Thanks.

Re: [PATCH v2] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Junio C Hamano]

Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com> writes:

> +[[getting-help]]
> +=== Getting Help
> +
> +If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.

Is this list meant to be an exhaustive list of authoritative
sources?  IOW, are we reasonably sure that some of us would be
around and give useful help, and that we do not mind readers to
consider these places "officially endorsed by the project"?

Or is this meant to be a list of reasonably well-known places, but
may include places where the project does not want to be associated
with the quality of answers given there?  

I am (implicitly) assuming that it is the former, but I think it is
better to clarify what this "list of places" is meant to be.

I notice that stack overflow is missing in this list.  Intended?
Not that I visit there at all nor I would recommend it, but I recall
seeing questions asked by more than a few people after getting bad
pieces of advice there.

> +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> +
> +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. The Git list
> +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> +"subscribe git" in the body.

Sounds good; I agree with Denton, especially with the mention of
"you must join" on the other mailing list, that it is a good idea to
explicitly say that subscription is optional in this entry.

You can ask questions even if you haven't tried other avenues and
failed, but this entry makes it sound as if an earlier failure
elsewhere is a prerequisite for asking for help here.


Thanks.

Re: [PATCH v2] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Emily Shaffer]

On Sat, Nov 16, 2019 at 12:05:45PM +0900, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com> writes:
> 
> > +[[getting-help]]
> > +=== Getting Help
> > +
> > +If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
> 
> Is this list meant to be an exhaustive list of authoritative
> sources?

To the best of my knowledge, as applicable, yeah.

> IOW, are we reasonably sure that some of us would be
> around and give useful help, and that we do not mind readers to
> consider these places "officially endorsed by the project"?

Right. That's my hope. I worry that sending newbies to non-endorsed
places for help will lead to them getting incorrect or conflicting help.

> 
> Or is this meant to be a list of reasonably well-known places, but
> may include places where the project does not want to be associated
> with the quality of answers given there?  

No.

> I am (implicitly) assuming that it is the former, but I think it is
> better to clarify what this "list of places" is meant to be.

I'll try to fudge the language so that it implies these are official
channels for getting help.

> I notice that stack overflow is missing in this list.  Intended?
> Not that I visit there at all nor I would recommend it, but I recall
> seeing questions asked by more than a few people after getting bad
> pieces of advice there.

Hm. SO for getting help contributing to a specific project? That doesn't
sound like a likely avenue or a good idea to me, since my understanding
is that we don't consider it an "official presence" (some projects do, I
guess).

I suppose the kinds of questions I expect to see on StackOverflow
include "How do I write a mutex lock in C" or "How do I generate patches
with a cover letter", not "I'm stuck on this Git tutorial" or "Would the
Git project welcome X change". To me, this doesn't seem like the place
to bring it up one way or another.

> 
> > +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> > +
> > +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> > +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> > +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. The Git list
> > +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> > +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> > +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> > +"subscribe git" in the body.
> 
> Sounds good; I agree with Denton, especially with the mention of
> "you must join" on the other mailing list, that it is a good idea to
> explicitly say that subscription is optional in this entry.
> 
> You can ask questions even if you haven't tried other avenues and
> failed, but this entry makes it sound as if an earlier failure
> elsewhere is a prerequisite for asking for help here.

I envision an exchange sort of like this:

Newbie to git@vger.kernel.org: "I'm having trouble compiling Git and I
want to write a patch, I'm getting X error"

Veteran to Newbie, cc git-mentoring, bcc git@vger.kernel.org:
"Please build with blah flag and paste console output, plus let us know
system information blah blah blah"

I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans. I
have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
mailing list.

Of course if you want to encourage newbies to ask in any of these three
venues, weighted equally, I can change the language. But suggesting the
main list as a last resort was intentional.

 - Emily

Re: [PATCH v2] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Junio C Hamano]

Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com> writes:

>> I am (implicitly) assuming that it is the former, but I think it is
>> better to clarify what this "list of places" is meant to be.
>
> I'll try to fudge the language so that it implies these are official
> channels for getting help.

Sounds good.

>> I notice that stack overflow is missing in this list.  Intended?
>> Not that I visit there at all nor I would recommend it, but I recall
>> seeing questions asked by more than a few people after getting bad
>> pieces of advice there.
>
> Hm. SO for getting help contributing to a specific project? ...
> I suppose the kinds of questions I expect to see on StackOverflow
> include "How do I write a mutex lock in C" or "How do I generate patches
> with a cover letter", not "I'm stuck on this Git tutorial" or "Would the
> Git project welcome X change". To me, this doesn't seem like the place
> to bring it up one way or another.

I am glad I brought this up, because "How do I force git ignore
changes I make to an already tracked file?" was a question I thought
a reader of this document might want to ask to these "avenues for
getting help", and I wouldn't be surprised to see such a question
asked on stack overflow.

After re-reading the title of the document, I am reminded that the
intended audience is aspiring Git developers, and I now know that it
is silly for an aspiring Git _developer_ to be asking such a
question---I am guessing you meant that these "avenues" are only
about getting help on _developing_ code to be included in git-core,
and in that context, yes, I agree that SO is a poor place for that.

I'll re-read the patch to see if what is written in the document is
prone to this kind of misunderstanding, or it was just my fault to
have failed to notice a clear description on what kind of help the
section is talking about.

> I envision an exchange sort of like this:
>
> Newbie to git@vger.kernel.org: "I'm having trouble compiling Git and I
> want to write a patch, I'm getting X error"
>
> Veteran to Newbie, cc git-mentoring, bcc git@vger.kernel.org:
> "Please build with blah flag and paste console output, plus let us know
> system information blah blah blah"
>
> I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
> first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
> members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans. I
> have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
> probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
> mailing list.

OK.  I understand and agree with the direction.

I wonder how well the "CC: git-mentoring" part would work, though.

A response to "plus let us know" by the Newbie will most likely keep
the list on CC, which would bounce with "you must be subscribed"?
It may appear rather rude to tell somebody they need to subscribe to
another list in order to obtain the help.

Thanks.

Re: [PATCH v2] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[SZEDER Gábor]

On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 03:06:37PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> +==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
> +
> +This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
> +currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
> +in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
> +https://colabti.org/irclogger//irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see

Nit: there are two consecutive slashes in the middle of that URL.

Re: [PATCH v2] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[SZEDER Gábor]

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 01:45:19PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 16, 2019 at 12:05:45PM +0900, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> > > +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> > > +
> > > +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> > > +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> > > +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. The Git list
> > > +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> > > +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> > > +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> > > +"subscribe git" in the body.
> > 
> > Sounds good; I agree with Denton, especially with the mention of
> > "you must join" on the other mailing list, that it is a good idea to
> > explicitly say that subscription is optional in this entry.
> > 
> > You can ask questions even if you haven't tried other avenues and
> > failed, but this entry makes it sound as if an earlier failure
> > elsewhere is a prerequisite for asking for help here.
> 
> I envision an exchange sort of like this:
> 
> Newbie to git@vger.kernel.org: "I'm having trouble compiling Git and I
> want to write a patch, I'm getting X error"
> 
> Veteran to Newbie, cc git-mentoring, bcc git@vger.kernel.org:
> "Please build with blah flag and paste console output, plus let us know
> system information blah blah blah"

That won't work if the veteran is not registered to the mentoring
list, and we can't assume that the newbie is registered there either.
I don't think that we should send anyone who asked a question here to
somewhere else, especially if that elsewhere requires registration.

> I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
> first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
> members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans. I
> have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
> probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
> mailing list.
> 
> Of course if you want to encourage newbies to ask in any of these three
> venues, weighted equally, I can change the language. But suggesting the
> main list as a last resort was intentional.

git@vger is the ultimate source of all wisdom :) and it is openly
accessible for anyone for writing, reading, and searching.  Therefore
these three venues cannot be weighted equally, but git@vger should be
the explicitly preferred venue.  Only if the newbie has some other
preferences should the other two be considered; e.g. if more
interactive, chatty communication is preferred, then try #git-devel.

Re: [PATCH v2] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Johannes Schindelin]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1374 bytes --]

Hi Gábor,

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 01:45:19PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
>
> > I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
> > first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
> > members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans.
> > I have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
> > probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
> > mailing list.
> >
> > Of course if you want to encourage newbies to ask in any of these
> > three venues, weighted equally, I can change the language. But
> > suggesting the main list as a last resort was intentional.
>
> git@vger is the ultimate source of all wisdom :) and it is openly
> accessible for anyone for writing,

... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
(which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...

> reading, and searching.  Therefore these three venues cannot be weighted
> equally, but git@vger should be the explicitly preferred venue.  Only if
> the newbie has some other preferences should the other two be
> considered; e.g. if more interactive, chatty communication is preferred,
> then try #git-devel.

Ciao,
Dscho

Re: [PATCH v2] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[SZEDER Gábor]

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 10:29:43PM +0100, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> Hi Gábor,
> 
> On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 01:45:19PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> >
> > > I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
> > > first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
> > > members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans.
> > > I have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
> > > probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
> > > mailing list.
> > >
> > > Of course if you want to encourage newbies to ask in any of these
> > > three venues, weighted equally, I can change the language. But
> > > suggesting the main list as a last resort was intentional.
> >
> > git@vger is the ultimate source of all wisdom :) and it is openly
> > accessible for anyone for writing,
> 
> ... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
> bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
> (which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...

And I believe that that "vast majority" will never try to contribute
to Git, and thus doesn't matter.

> > reading, and searching.  Therefore these three venues cannot be weighted
> > equally, but git@vger should be the explicitly preferred venue.  Only if
> > the newbie has some other preferences should the other two be
> > considered; e.g. if more interactive, chatty communication is preferred,
> > then try #git-devel.

Re: [PATCH v2] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Eric Wong]

SZEDER Gábor <szeder.dev@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 10:29:43PM +0100, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> > On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:
> > > git@vger is the ultimate source of all wisdom :) and it is openly
> > > accessible for anyone for writing,
> > 
> > ... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
> > bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
> > (which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...
> 
> And I believe that that "vast majority" will never try to contribute
> to Git, and thus doesn't matter.

No.  A better objective would be to promote plain-text to the
point where the "vast majority" expect it.  Ironically, major
social networks and forums are already that way.  HTML mail can
become solely an avenue for phishers and spammers, and
eventually eradicated.  It'll be a long battle ahead, though...

RE: [PATCH v2] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Kerry, Richard]

> From: git-owner@vger.kernel.org <git-owner@vger.kernel.org> On Behalf
> Of Johannes Schindelin
> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 9:30 PM
> To: SZEDER Gábor <szeder.dev@gmail.com>
> ... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
> bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
> (which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...

[RK>] And even those of us who can find the plain/html format selection control may find that our employer's system turns everything into base64 anyway, thus again making it impossible to post to vger.  I fully expect this email to reach all those of you who are To or CC, but not to reach vger.

Regards,
Richard.

Re: [PATCH v2] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Junio C Hamano]

"Kerry, Richard" <richard.kerry@atos.net> writes:

>> From: git-owner@vger.kernel.org <git-owner@vger.kernel.org> On Behalf
>> Of Johannes Schindelin
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 9:30 PM
>> To: SZEDER Gábor <szeder.dev@gmail.com>
>> ... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
>> bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
>> (which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...
>
> [RK>] And even those of us who can find the plain/html format
> selection control may find that our employer's system turns
> everything into base64 anyway, thus again making it impossible to
> post to vger.  I fully expect this email to reach all those of you
> who are To or CC, but not to reach vger.

You actually can read it on public-inbox.org/git/ which means vger
correctly forwarded ;-)

Re: [PATCH v2] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Johannes Schindelin]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3931 bytes --]

Hi Gábor,

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 10:29:43PM +0100, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 01:45:19PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> > >
> > > > I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
> > > > first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
> > > > members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans.
> > > > I have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
> > > > probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
> > > > mailing list.
> > > >
> > > > Of course if you want to encourage newbies to ask in any of these
> > > > three venues, weighted equally, I can change the language. But
> > > > suggesting the main list as a last resort was intentional.
> > >
> > > git@vger is the ultimate source of all wisdom :) and it is openly
> > > accessible for anyone for writing,
> >
> > ... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
> > bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
> > (which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...
>
> And I believe that that "vast majority" will never try to contribute
> to Git, and thus doesn't matter.

Yes, this is a tautology, because by that very expectation you make that
happen. It's kind of a perfect example of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And while I write this, I realize that my answer is not even data-driven.
So *clicketyclick*:

$ git shortlog -nse | grep outlook
     6  Force Charlie <charlieio@outlook.com>
     1  Rohit Mani <rohit.mani@outlook.com>

Oh wait, what? That vast majority will never contribute? Not so "never",
after all. Well, it is certain that they do not feel invited to the Git
mailing list, that much is clear. Force Charlie's contributions probably
all came in via Git for Windows (because it does not slam the door in the
face of Outlook.com users, is my guess).

But Rohit is an interesting case. Apparently in 2014, vger had no qualms
about letting @outlook.com users in:

https://public-inbox.org/git/BLU0-SMTP956BEABA437FB370F76953918A0@phx.gbl/

Well, I guess as long as we can make a nice and cozy place for ourselves
and our kind here, and contend ourselves with the knowledge that the rest
of them out there don't matter, all is fine and dandy.

Or maybe it is not. Maybe this is not fine and dandy at all.

Maybe I find this very much _not_ in line with the decency that I normally
see on this here Git mailing list, in particular with the later arrivals.
With the politeness and respect for other people and their different
tastes (such as the taste for HTML-formatted mails, which _do_ make
conveying certain things a lot easier) that I hoped we could all agree on,
and which I actually did feel during our Virtual Contributor Summit
earlier this fall.

I don't know about you, but if I were to read on any mailing list that I
do not matter at all, I would have a range of totally understandable
feelings about that.

In short: This is not what I want to see on this list, it is not in line
with my understanding of being respectful to one another.

Let's hold ourselves to a higher standard, okay?

Ciao,
Dscho

> > > reading, and searching.  Therefore these three venues cannot be weighted
> > > equally, but git@vger should be the explicitly preferred venue.  Only if
> > > the newbie has some other preferences should the other two be
> > > considered; e.g. if more interactive, chatty communication is preferred,
> > > then try #git-devel.
>

P.S.: I _think_ that I understand where exclusive behavior comes from, of
course, there is ample research about this, see e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_and_out-group. This explains it,
but does not excuse it.

Re: [PATCH v2] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[SZEDER Gábor]

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 12:41:56PM +0100, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> Hi Gábor,
> 
> On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 10:29:43PM +0100, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 01:45:19PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
> > > > > first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
> > > > > members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans.
> > > > > I have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
> > > > > probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
> > > > > mailing list.
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course if you want to encourage newbies to ask in any of these
> > > > > three venues, weighted equally, I can change the language. But
> > > > > suggesting the main list as a last resort was intentional.
> > > >
> > > > git@vger is the ultimate source of all wisdom :) and it is openly
> > > > accessible for anyone for writing,
> > >
> > > ... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
> > > bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
> > > (which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...

My interpretation of the above paragraph was that the "(which I
believe constitutes the vast majority)" part refers only to the
"people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails", but not
to the aforementioned "people with an @outlook.com address" (who had
their own subsentence in parentheses).

And with that statement in itself I completely agree: I would expect
that that "vast majority", i.e. the number of people who don't know
how to suppress HTML in their emails is in the billions, though I have
no data on that.

> > And I believe that that "vast majority" will never try to contribute
> > to Git, and thus doesn't matter.

I could have worded this more carefully, e.g. along the lines of:

  I believe that the vast majority of people will never contribute to
  Git anyway, therefore trying to give more weight to your argument
  with that "vast majority" doesn't make it any stronger.

> Yes, this is a tautology, because by that very expectation you make that
> happen. It's kind of a perfect example of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Call it as you wish, I think it's simply inconceivable that the vast
majority of people will contribute to Git.


[Snipping the parts that appear to stem from the misunderstanding that
I tried to clarify above, in the hope that we can focus on the more
important point, which is:]


> > > > reading, and searching.

I would like to emphasize these last words of the sentence that was
cut in two so unfortunately, because I'm afraid that they didn't get
the attention they deserve although they are of fundamental
importance.

If someone reaches out to us with a problem, and we can provide a
solution, then it's best to have that solution openly accessible for
the benefit of everyone else.  IMO this far outweighs any issues with
HTML-formatted emails or @outlook.com email addresses, and on its own
justifies putting git@vger first.  That way even those who stop
reading at the first email address will choose what's most beneficial
for the greater good.  If someone for some reason still prefers
otherwise and/or due to some technical limitation can't post to
git@vger, then they could still consider the other two venues.

> > > > Therefore these three venues cannot be weighted
> > > > equally, but git@vger should be the explicitly preferred venue.  Only if
> > > > the newbie has some other preferences should the other two be
> > > > considered; e.g. if more interactive, chatty communication is preferred,
> > > > then try #git-devel.

[PATCH v3] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Emily Shaffer]

With https://public-inbox.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
contributors who have questions.

Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
questions there too. Mention some of the conventions in case folks are
unfamiliar with IRC.

Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
contributors, finally list the main Git list and mention some of the
posting conventions.

Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
---
Since v2:

- Removed a double slash in a URL
- public-inbox -> lore.kernel.org
- Removed indication that Git list should be a fallback; instead, treat
  it as equally useful for first attempt at Q&A.

As for the conversation which spun off regarding the access controls on
git-mentoring list, since the list still hasn't seen traffic, I'm going
to keep them as they are for a little longer.

 - Emily

 Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 32 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 1 file changed, 32 insertions(+)

diff --git a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
index 35b9130aa3..e7489d156a 100644
--- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
+++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
@@ -23,6 +23,38 @@ useful additional context:
 - `Documentation/SubmittingPatches`
 - `Documentation/howto/new-command.txt`
 
+[[getting-help]]
+=== Getting Help
+
+If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
+
+==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
+
+This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
+questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
+project. You must join the group to view messages or post.
+
+==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
+
+This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
+currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
+in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
+https://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see
+whether someone answered you. IRC does not allow offline private messaging, so
+if you try to private message someone and then log out of IRC, they cannot
+respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
+can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
+conversation.
+
+==== https://lore.kernel.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
+
+This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
+announcements, design discussions, and more take place. The Git list
+requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
+replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
+subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
+"subscribe git" in the body.
+
 [[getting-started]]
 == Getting Started
 
-- 
2.24.1.735.g03f4e72817-goog

Re: [PATCH v3] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Derrick Stolee]

On 12/12/2019 8:31 PM, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> With https://public-inbox.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we

We are trying to move to lore.kernel.org, I think.

> now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
> contributors who have questions.
> 
> Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
> questions there too. Mention some of the conventions in case folks are
> unfamiliar with IRC.
> 
> Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
> contributors, finally list the main Git list and mention some of the
> posting conventions.
> 
> Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
> ---
> Since v2:
> 
> - Removed a double slash in a URL
> - public-inbox -> lore.kernel.org

Ah, I see you mentioned it here and in the contents. Commit messages
are harder to keep straight, in my experience.

> +==== https://lore.kernel.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]

Re: [PATCH v3] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Emily Shaffer]

On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 10:00:45PM -0500, Derrick Stolee wrote:
> On 12/12/2019 8:31 PM, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> > With https://public-inbox.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
> 
> We are trying to move to lore.kernel.org, I think.

Argh, and I even wordsmithed a few paragraphs down in this commit
message too. Sending..

> 
> > now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
> > contributors who have questions.
> > 
> > Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
> > questions there too. Mention some of the conventions in case folks are
> > unfamiliar with IRC.
> > 
> > Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
> > contributors, finally list the main Git list and mention some of the
> > posting conventions.
> > 
> > Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
> > ---
> > Since v2:
> > 
> > - Removed a double slash in a URL
> > - public-inbox -> lore.kernel.org
> 
> Ah, I see you mentioned it here and in the contents. Commit messages
> are harder to keep straight, in my experience.
> 
> > +==== https://lore.kernel.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]

[PATCH v4] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Emily Shaffer]

With https://lore.kernel.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
contributors who have questions.

Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
questions there too. Mention some of the conventions in case folks are
unfamiliar with IRC.

Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
contributors, finally list the main Git list and mention some of the
posting conventions.

Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
---

Only difference from v3 is the public-inbox -> lore.kernel in the commit
message. Thanks, Stolee.

 - Emily

 Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 32 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 1 file changed, 32 insertions(+)

diff --git a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
index 35b9130aa3..e7489d156a 100644
--- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
+++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
@@ -23,6 +23,38 @@ useful additional context:
 - `Documentation/SubmittingPatches`
 - `Documentation/howto/new-command.txt`
 
+[[getting-help]]
+=== Getting Help
+
+If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
+
+==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
+
+This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
+questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
+project. You must join the group to view messages or post.
+
+==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
+
+This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
+currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
+in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
+https://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see
+whether someone answered you. IRC does not allow offline private messaging, so
+if you try to private message someone and then log out of IRC, they cannot
+respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
+can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
+conversation.
+
+==== https://lore.kernel.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
+
+This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
+announcements, design discussions, and more take place. The Git list
+requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
+replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
+subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
+"subscribe git" in the body.
+
 [[getting-started]]
 == Getting Started
 
-- 
2.24.1.735.g03f4e72817-goog

Re: [PATCH v3] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Junio C Hamano]

Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com> writes:

> Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
> questions there too.

Correct me if I recall wrong, but wasn't #git the original IRC
channel we developers hang out on, and then somebody thought "the
traffic is fairly low, so it should be OK" and directed non
developer trafic there, which caused the developers to migrate out
to #git-devel, a new channel?

Re: [PATCH v3] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Emily Shaffer]

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 09:20:20AM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com> writes:
> 
> > Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
> > questions there too.
> 
> Correct me if I recall wrong, but wasn't #git the original IRC
> channel we developers hang out on, and then somebody thought "the
> traffic is fairly low, so it should be OK" and directed non
> developer trafic there, which caused the developers to migrate out
> to #git-devel, a new channel?

I certainly don't have the background to correct you, as that was before
my time, but I can say that this document isn't directing non-developer
traffic. This is a tutorial for aspiring Git developers to ask questions
about Git development.

 - Emily

Re: [PATCH v3] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Junio C Hamano]

Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com> writes:

> On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 09:20:20AM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
>> Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com> writes:
>> 
>> > Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
>> > questions there too.
>> 
>> Correct me if I recall wrong, but wasn't #git the original IRC
>> channel we developers hang out on, and then somebody thought "the
>> traffic is fairly low, so it should be OK" and directed non
>> developer trafic there, which caused the developers to migrate out
>> to #git-devel, a new channel?
>
> I certainly don't have the background to correct you, as that was before
> my time, but I can say that this document isn't directing non-developer
> traffic. This is a tutorial for aspiring Git developers to ask questions
> about Git development.

I do not necessarily think it is a bad idea, but the rationale must
be "#git-devel is for those who work on git, so it is very on topic
there", not "it is low traffic so anything can be sent there".

[PATCH v5] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[emilyshaffer]

From: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>

With https://lore.kernel.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
contributors who have questions.

Mention #git-devel, which is targeted for Git contributors; asking for
help with getting a first contribution together is on-topic for that
channel. Also mention some of the conventions in case folks are
unfamiliar with IRC.

Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
contributors, finally list the main Git list and mention some of the
posting conventions.

Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
---
On v3, Junio mentioned changing the justification for suggesting
#git-devel in the commit-message. Stolee mentioned a missed reference to
public-inbox.org which was fixed in v4, but I mangled the threading, so
I'll also move this one to reply to v3 instead of the
in-thread-with-Stolee v4.

 - Emily

 Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 32 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 1 file changed, 32 insertions(+)

diff --git a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
index 35b9130aa3..e7489d156a 100644
--- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
+++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
@@ -23,6 +23,38 @@ useful additional context:
 - `Documentation/SubmittingPatches`
 - `Documentation/howto/new-command.txt`
 
+[[getting-help]]
+=== Getting Help
+
+If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
+
+==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
+
+This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
+questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
+project. You must join the group to view messages or post.
+
+==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
+
+This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
+currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
+in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
+https://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see
+whether someone answered you. IRC does not allow offline private messaging, so
+if you try to private message someone and then log out of IRC, they cannot
+respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
+can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
+conversation.
+
+==== https://lore.kernel.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
+
+This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
+announcements, design discussions, and more take place. The Git list
+requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
+replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
+subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
+"subscribe git" in the body.
+
 [[getting-started]]
 == Getting Started
 
-- 
2.25.0.341.g760bfbb309-goog

Re: [PATCH v5] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Junio C Hamano]

emilyshaffer@google.com writes:

> From: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>

Hmm, unlike folks who use GGG, your From: address seem almost usable
without having to waste two extra lines (which matters when one has
to review many patches a day).

> With https://lore.kernel.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
> now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
> contributors who have questions.

Yay.

> Mention #git-devel, which is targeted for Git contributors; asking for
> help with getting a first contribution together is on-topic for that
> channel. Also mention some of the conventions in case folks are
> unfamiliar with IRC.
>
> Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
> contributors, finally list the main Git list and mention some of the
> posting conventions.

> +[[getting-help]]
> +=== Getting Help
> +
> +If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
> +
> +==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
> +
> +This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
> +questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
> +project. You must join the group to view messages or post.

OK.


> +==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
> +
> +This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
> +currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
> +in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
> +https://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see
> +whether someone answered you. IRC does not allow offline private messaging, so
> +if you try to private message someone and then log out of IRC, they cannot
> +respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
> +can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
> +conversation.

OK.

> +==== https://lore.kernel.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]

Hmph.  I would have expected mailto:git@vger.kernel.org as the main
URL here, as this enumeration is not for those who lurk to passibly
receive information, but for those (new) contributors who want to
ask help by actively transmitting.  Mentioning lore as an archive
when talking about the list is necessary, but it shouldn't obscure
the main e-mail address people need to know in order to send their
requests.

> +
> +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. The Git list
> +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> +"subscribe git" in the body.

Thanks.

Re: [PATCH v5] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Emily Shaffer]

On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 12:35:28PM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> emilyshaffer@google.com writes:
> 
> > From: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
> 
> Hmm, unlike folks who use GGG, your From: address seem almost usable
> without having to waste two extra lines (which matters when one has
> to review many patches a day).

Blame an unhealthy appreciation for being able to write emails in Vim.

I generate patches with 'git format-patch' - what's the unusable part of
"almost" usable here? Typically I invoke it like so:

  git format-patch -o ~/mailed-patches/blah -vN master..branchname
  git send-email --to=git@vger.kernel.org ~/mailed-patches/blah/vN*

If there's more tweaking I should do in the workflow I'd like to know.

> > +==== https://lore.kernel.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> 
> Hmph.  I would have expected mailto:git@vger.kernel.org as the main
> URL here, as this enumeration is not for those who lurk to passibly
> receive information, but for those (new) contributors who want to
> ask help by actively transmitting.  Mentioning lore as an archive
> when talking about the list is necessary, but it shouldn't obscure
> the main e-mail address people need to know in order to send their
> requests.

Ok. My personal bias as a long-time browser-as-primary-mail-client user
leaked through. I'll send another revision now.

Re: [PATCH v5] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Emily Shaffer]

On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 12:50:25PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 12:35:28PM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> > emilyshaffer@google.com writes:
> > 
> > > From: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
> > 
> > Hmm, unlike folks who use GGG, your From: address seem almost usable
> > without having to waste two extra lines (which matters when one has
> > to review many patches a day).
> 
> Blame an unhealthy appreciation for being able to write emails in Vim.
> 
> I generate patches with 'git format-patch' - what's the unusable part of
> "almost" usable here? Typically I invoke it like so:
> 
>   git format-patch -o ~/mailed-patches/blah -vN master..branchname
>   git send-email --to=git@vger.kernel.org ~/mailed-patches/blah/vN*
> 
> If there's more tweaking I should do in the workflow I'd like to know.

Ah, I think that 'git send-email' is injecting this because I added a
redundant "sendemail.from" line to my ~/.gitconfig while I was testing
out 'git bugreport' for my other patchset. I'll remove that config from
here on.

 - Emily

[PATCH v6] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Emily Shaffer]

With https://lore.kernel.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
contributors who have questions.

Mention #git-devel, which is targeted for Git contributors; asking for
help with getting a first contribution together is on-topic for that
channel. Also mention some of the conventions in case folks are
unfamiliar with IRC.

Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
contributors, finally list the main Git list and mention some of the
posting conventions.

Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
---
Since v5, let the mailing list reference resolve to a mailto instead and
added an explicit link to the (read-only) archives.

 - Emily

 Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 33 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 1 file changed, 33 insertions(+)

diff --git a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
index 35b9130aa3..c361b5d4ce 100644
--- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
+++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
@@ -23,6 +23,39 @@ useful additional context:
 - `Documentation/SubmittingPatches`
 - `Documentation/howto/new-command.txt`
 
+[[getting-help]]
+=== Getting Help
+
+If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
+
+==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
+
+This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
+questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
+project. You must join the group to view messages or post.
+
+==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
+
+This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
+currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
+in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
+https://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see
+whether someone answered you. IRC does not allow offline private messaging, so
+if you try to private message someone and then log out of IRC, they cannot
+respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
+can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
+conversation.
+
+==== git@vger.kernel.org
+
+This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
+announcements, design discussions, and more take place. The Git list
+requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
+replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
+subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
+"subscribe git" in the body. You can also browse the
+https://lore.kernel.org/git[archives] in your browser.
+
 [[getting-started]]
 == Getting Started
 
-- 
2.25.0.341.g760bfbb309-goog

Re: [PATCH v5] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Junio C Hamano]

Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com> writes:

> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 12:35:28PM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
>> emilyshaffer@google.com writes:
>> 
>> > From: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
>> 
>> Hmm, unlike folks who use GGG, your From: address seem almost usable
>> without having to waste two extra lines (which matters when one has
>> to review many patches a day).
>
> Blame an unhealthy appreciation for being able to write emails in Vim.
>
> I generate patches with 'git format-patch' - what's the unusable part of
> "almost" usable here?

Compare your message I am responding here, with your message with
the patch in it.

This one has a perfectly usable "From:" address,

    From:   Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>

while the patch e-mail has

    From:   emilyshaffer@google.com

which cannot be quite usable as the author identity.

Re: [PATCH v6] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Junio C Hamano]

Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com> writes:

> +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. The Git list
> +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> +"subscribe git" in the body. You can also browse the
> +https://lore.kernel.org/git[archives] in your browser.

Let's not place a stress on non essential part (i.e. viewable in
browser) over a more important stuff (i.e. this is where archive is
available).  How about this as a replacement of the last sentence?

	The archive of this mailing list is available at
	https://lore.kernel.org/git[archives] to view in a browser.

Re: [PATCH v6] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Emily Shaffer]

On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 01:18:36PM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com> writes:
> 
> > +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> > +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. The Git list
> > +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> > +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> > +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> > +"subscribe git" in the body. You can also browse the
> > +https://lore.kernel.org/git[archives] in your browser.
> 
> Let's not place a stress on non essential part (i.e. viewable in
> browser) over a more important stuff (i.e. this is where archive is
> available).  How about this as a replacement of the last sentence?
> 
> 	The archive of this mailing list is available at
> 	https://lore.kernel.org/git[archives] to view in a browser.

Sure. I'll send a reroll unless I hear from you before it's ready that
you took it with that change.

[PATCH v7] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Emily Shaffer]

With https://lore.kernel.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
contributors who have questions.

Mention #git-devel, which is targeted for Git contributors; asking for
help with getting a first contribution together is on-topic for that
channel. Also mention some of the conventions in case folks are
unfamiliar with IRC.

Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
contributors, finally list the main Git list and mention some of the
posting conventions.

Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
---
Took a slightly modified version of Junio's suggestion for the archive
link so the final text reads "The archive of this mailing list is
available to view in a browser" instead of "The archive of this mailing
list is available at archive to view in a browser".

 - Emily

 Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 33 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 1 file changed, 33 insertions(+)

diff --git a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
index 35b9130aa3..522c75099d 100644
--- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
+++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
@@ -23,6 +23,39 @@ useful additional context:
 - `Documentation/SubmittingPatches`
 - `Documentation/howto/new-command.txt`
 
+[[getting-help]]
+=== Getting Help
+
+If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
+
+==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
+
+This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
+questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
+project. You must join the group to view messages or post.
+
+==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
+
+This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
+currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
+in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
+https://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see
+whether someone answered you. IRC does not allow offline private messaging, so
+if you try to private message someone and then log out of IRC, they cannot
+respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
+can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
+conversation.
+
+==== git@vger.kernel.org
+
+This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
+announcements, design discussions, and more take place. The Git list
+requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
+replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
+subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
+"subscribe git" in the body. The https://lore.kernel.org/git[archive] of this
+mailing list is available to view in a browser.
+
 [[getting-started]]
 == Getting Started
 
-- 
2.25.0.341.g760bfbb309-goog

Re: [PATCH v7] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[SZEDER Gábor]

On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 01:26:02PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> With https://lore.kernel.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
> now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
> contributors who have questions.

Why should a supposedly "open" open source project direct new
contributors to a mailing list that is not openly accessible, and even
reading and searching its archives requires registration?

Re: [PATCH v7] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Junio C Hamano]

Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com> writes:

> Took a slightly modified version of Junio's suggestion for the archive
> link so the final text reads "The archive of this mailing list is
> available to view in a browser" instead of "The archive of this mailing
> list is available at archive to view in a browser".

Looks good.  Thanks.

Re: [PATCH v7] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Junio C Hamano]

SZEDER Gábor <szeder.dev@gmail.com> writes:

> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 01:26:02PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
>> With https://lore.kernel.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
>> now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
>> contributors who have questions.
>
> Why should a supposedly "open" open source project direct new
> contributors to a mailing list that is not openly accessible, and even
> reading and searching its archives requires registration?

Haven't we had that discussion when the mentoring list was launched?

I would not prefer joining a closed list of unknown people over
coming up with a fake name and asking for help in an open list if I
had choice when interacting with an established community as a new
member, but I would understand it if preference of some people are
opposite from mine.  The more important part, from my point of view,
is that we offer choices (the proposed doc update illustrates
three).

Re: [PATCH v7] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[SZEDER Gábor]

On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 03:44:40PM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> SZEDER Gábor <szeder.dev@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 01:26:02PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> >> With https://lore.kernel.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
> >> now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
> >> contributors who have questions.
> >
> > Why should a supposedly "open" open source project direct new
> > contributors to a mailing list that is not openly accessible, and even
> > reading and searching its archives requires registration?
> 
> Haven't we had that discussion when the mentoring list was launched?
> 
> I would not prefer joining a closed list of unknown people over
> coming up with a fake name and asking for help in an open list if I
> had choice when interacting with an established community as a new
> member, but I would understand it if preference of some people are
> opposite from mine.  The more important part, from my point of view,
> is that we offer choices (the proposed doc update illustrates
> three).

I remember a discussion about whether that list and its archive should
be open or closed, and I agree that offering choices is good.
However, since that mentoring list requires registration, we have to
carefully consider how to present it to newcomers.

Openly accessible knowledge is a fundamental value, and it's the
foundation of open source.  Therefore, we definitely should not direct
newcomers to a closed mailing list as the first option, it can only be
a fallback.

The text should list git@vger as the first option, since that's the
only open mailing list we have, it should clearly emphasize that
newcomers are very welcome, and should explicitly encourage them to
post their questions here, no matter how trivial or silly they think
those questions are, we'll be always glad to answer them.

The closed mailing list can be mentioned third as a fallback for those
who would prefer not to end up on public record right away or who have
any technical issues with posting to the main mailing list.

Re: [PATCH v7] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Junio C Hamano]

SZEDER Gábor <szeder.dev@gmail.com> writes:

> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 03:44:40PM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
>
>> ...  The more important part, from my point of view,
>> is that we offer choices (the proposed doc update illustrates
>> three).
>
> I remember a discussion about whether that list and its archive should
> be open or closed, and I agree that offering choices is good.
> However, since that mentoring list requires registration, we have to
> carefully consider how to present it to newcomers.
>
> Openly accessible knowledge is a fundamental value, and it's the
> foundation of open source.  Therefore, we definitely should not direct
> newcomers to a closed mailing list as the first option, it can only be
> a fallback.

I am not that dogmatic ;-) I would be very unhappy and probably
would not have joined if the main development community was closed,
but I do not think the "knowledge" the "closed mentoring list for
those who are shy" are meant to impart to newbies will be something
that will be so well kept secret that are shared among only those in
the closed list.  I expect the mentoring list to be repeating what
those who graduated "new"-ness consider pretty much common public
knowledge.

Having said that, my reading did hiccup when queuing Emily's text,
in that it listed the mentoring list first, and (more problematic)
the only choice among the three described with a word "great" was
that one.  Also, now I re-read it, the last sentence "You must join
the group to view messages or post", without explaining why it is
set up that way is bound to give a wrong impression, I suppose.  I
presume that the reason why those who wanted to make the mentoring
list closed was because they thought it would be nicer for shysters,
but if that is the case, it probably is better to spell that out.

> The text should list git@vger as the first option, since that's the
> only open mailing list we have, it should clearly emphasize that
> newcomers are very welcome, and should explicitly encourage them to
> post their questions here, no matter how trivial or silly they think
> those questions are, we'll be always glad to answer them.

I have no problem with seeing an expanded invitation to the main
list.  I do not have a strong opinion on the order of three items.

> The closed mailing list can be mentioned third as a fallback for those
> who would prefer not to end up on public record right away or who have
> any technical issues with posting to the main mailing list.

I'll mark the topic on hold (it is in 'next'), and would give the
stakeholders some time to settle the discussion, perhaps with
counter-proposals in an incremental patch form.  Would it be
reasonable to set the deadline around the end of the next week?

Re: [PATCH v7] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Emily Shaffer]

On Thu, Feb 06, 2020 at 08:33:54AM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> SZEDER Gábor <szeder.dev@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 03:44:40PM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> >
> >> ...  The more important part, from my point of view,
> >> is that we offer choices (the proposed doc update illustrates
> >> three).
> >
> > I remember a discussion about whether that list and its archive should
> > be open or closed, and I agree that offering choices is good.
> > However, since that mentoring list requires registration, we have to
> > carefully consider how to present it to newcomers.
> >
> > Openly accessible knowledge is a fundamental value, and it's the
> > foundation of open source.  Therefore, we definitely should not direct
> > newcomers to a closed mailing list as the first option, it can only be
> > a fallback.
> 
> I am not that dogmatic ;-) I would be very unhappy and probably
> would not have joined if the main development community was closed,
> but I do not think the "knowledge" the "closed mentoring list for
> those who are shy" are meant to impart to newbies will be something
> that will be so well kept secret that are shared among only those in
> the closed list.  I expect the mentoring list to be repeating what
> those who graduated "new"-ness consider pretty much common public
> knowledge.
> 
> Having said that, my reading did hiccup when queuing Emily's text,
> in that it listed the mentoring list first, and (more problematic)
> the only choice among the three described with a word "great" was
> that one.  Also, now I re-read it, the last sentence "You must join
> the group to view messages or post", without explaining why it is
> set up that way is bound to give a wrong impression, I suppose.  I
> presume that the reason why those who wanted to make the mentoring
> list closed was because they thought it would be nicer for shysters,
> but if that is the case, it probably is better to spell that out.

Sure. I think I didn't do so in an effort to be brief. I'll think on
this today and send some suggestions here (rather than rerolling).

> 
> > The text should list git@vger as the first option, since that's the
> > only open mailing list we have, it should clearly emphasize that
> > newcomers are very welcome, and should explicitly encourage them to
> > post their questions here, no matter how trivial or silly they think
> > those questions are, we'll be always glad to answer them.
> 
> I have no problem with seeing an expanded invitation to the main
> list.  I do not have a strong opinion on the order of three items.

Me neither, and placing git@vger first does give me an opportunity to
say something like "if you feel worried about asking publicly, this list
is a more private setting" in reference to the mentors list. So that's
an option I could get behind.

> 
> > The closed mailing list can be mentioned third as a fallback for those
> > who would prefer not to end up on public record right away or who have
> > any technical issues with posting to the main mailing list.
> 
> I'll mark the topic on hold (it is in 'next'), and would give the
> stakeholders some time to settle the discussion, perhaps with
> counter-proposals in an incremental patch form.  Would it be
> reasonable to set the deadline around the end of the next week?

Yeah, that is OK for me. I'll try and send another email with some ideas
today or tomorrow.

Thanks for the feedback, Gábor - I appreciate it.

 - Emily

Re: [PATCH v7] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

[Emily Shaffer]

On Thu, Feb 06, 2020 at 11:49:29AM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 06, 2020 at 08:33:54AM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> > SZEDER Gábor <szeder.dev@gmail.com> writes:
> > 
> > > On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 03:44:40PM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> > >
> > >> ...  The more important part, from my point of view,
> > >> is that we offer choices (the proposed doc update illustrates
> > >> three).
> > >
> > > I remember a discussion about whether that list and its archive should
> > > be open or closed, and I agree that offering choices is good.
> > > However, since that mentoring list requires registration, we have to
> > > carefully consider how to present it to newcomers.
> > >
> > > Openly accessible knowledge is a fundamental value, and it's the
> > > foundation of open source.  Therefore, we definitely should not direct
> > > newcomers to a closed mailing list as the first option, it can only be
> > > a fallback.
> > 
> > I am not that dogmatic ;-) I would be very unhappy and probably
> > would not have joined if the main development community was closed,
> > but I do not think the "knowledge" the "closed mentoring list for
> > those who are shy" are meant to impart to newbies will be something
> > that will be so well kept secret that are shared among only those in
> > the closed list.  I expect the mentoring list to be repeating what
> > those who graduated "new"-ness consider pretty much common public
> > knowledge.
> > 
> > Having said that, my reading did hiccup when queuing Emily's text,
> > in that it listed the mentoring list first, and (more problematic)
> > the only choice among the three described with a word "great" was
> > that one.  Also, now I re-read it, the last sentence "You must join
> > the group to view messages or post", without explaining why it is
> > set up that way is bound to give a wrong impression, I suppose.  I
> > presume that the reason why those who wanted to make the mentoring
> > list closed was because they thought it would be nicer for shysters,
> > but if that is the case, it probably is better to spell that out.
> 
> Sure. I think I didn't do so in an effort to be brief. I'll think on
> this today and send some suggestions here (rather than rerolling).
> 
> > 
> > > The text should list git@vger as the first option, since that's the
> > > only open mailing list we have, it should clearly emphasize that
> > > newcomers are very welcome, and should explicitly encourage them to
> > > post their questions here, no matter how trivial or silly they think
> > > those questions are, we'll be always glad to answer them.
> > 
> > I have no problem with seeing an expanded invitation to the main
> > list.  I do not have a strong opinion on the order of three items.
> 
> Me neither, and placing git@vger first does give me an opportunity to
> say something like "if you feel worried about asking publicly, this list
> is a more private setting" in reference to the mentors list. So that's
> an option I could get behind.

How about something like this?

I was trying to achieve the following goals:

 - Try to remove bias:
   - Don't make git@vger sound like a last-ditch effort or scary place.
   - Don't call git-mentoring@ "great", rather explain why it was
     created
   - Don't imply that all contributors who want to help are present on
     mentoring list, or that all contributors who aren't present on
     mentoring list don't want to help - just indicate that all
     contributors on mentoring list do want to help
 - Explain reasoning around git-mentoring@:
   - avoiding the public eye (and that's why viewing is restricted)
   - targeted membership (people joined because they want to help)

I'm no professional writer, so I expect there's more work to be done.
When we have something we're happy with then I'll send a formal patch.

 - Emily

-- >8 --

---
 Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 29 +++++++++++++++------------
 1 file changed, 16 insertions(+), 13 deletions(-)

diff --git a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
index 522c75099d..427274df4d 100644
--- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
+++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
@@ -28,11 +28,24 @@ useful additional context:
 
 If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
 
+==== git@vger.kernel.org
+
+This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
+announcements, design discussions, and more take place. Those interested in
+contributing are welcome to post questions here. The Git list requires
+plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when replying to
+mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can subscribe to
+the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with "subscribe git"
+in the body. The https://lore.kernel.org/git[archive] of this mailing list is
+available to view in a browser.
+
 ==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
 
-This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
-questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
-project. You must join the group to view messages or post.
+This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and was created as a place to
+post questions and receive answers outside of the public eye of the main list.
+Veteran contributors who are especially interested in helping mentor newcomers
+are present on the list. In order to avoid search indexers, group membership is
+required to view messages; anyone can join and no approval is required.
 
 ==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
 
@@ -46,16 +59,6 @@ respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
 can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
 conversation.
 
-==== git@vger.kernel.org
-
-This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
-announcements, design discussions, and more take place. The Git list
-requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
-replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
-subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
-"subscribe git" in the body. The https://lore.kernel.org/git[archive] of this
-mailing list is available to view in a browser.
-
 [[getting-started]]
 == Getting Started
 
-- 
2.25.0.341.g760bfbb309-goog

[PATCH] MyFirstContribution: rephrase contact info

[Emily Shaffer]

Make an effort not to discourage new users from mailing questions to
git@vger.kernel.org, and explain the purpose of the mentoring list in
contrast to the main list.

Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
---
Since I didn't hear any complaint about
https://lore.kernel.org/git/20200206221305.GB190927@google.com, here it
is in a real live commit. There is no difference from the scissors patch
but the commit message.

 - Emily

 Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 29 +++++++++++++++------------
 1 file changed, 16 insertions(+), 13 deletions(-)

diff --git a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
index 522c75099d..427274df4d 100644
--- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
+++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
@@ -28,11 +28,24 @@ useful additional context:
 
 If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
 
+==== git@vger.kernel.org
+
+This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
+announcements, design discussions, and more take place. Those interested in
+contributing are welcome to post questions here. The Git list requires
+plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when replying to
+mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can subscribe to
+the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with "subscribe git"
+in the body. The https://lore.kernel.org/git[archive] of this mailing list is
+available to view in a browser.
+
 ==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
 
-This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
-questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
-project. You must join the group to view messages or post.
+This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and was created as a place to
+post questions and receive answers outside of the public eye of the main list.
+Veteran contributors who are especially interested in helping mentor newcomers
+are present on the list. In order to avoid search indexers, group membership is
+required to view messages; anyone can join and no approval is required.
 
 ==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
 
@@ -46,16 +59,6 @@ respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
 can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
 conversation.
 
-==== git@vger.kernel.org
-
-This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
-announcements, design discussions, and more take place. The Git list
-requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
-replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
-subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
-"subscribe git" in the body. The https://lore.kernel.org/git[archive] of this
-mailing list is available to view in a browser.
-
 [[getting-started]]
 == Getting Started
 
-- 
2.25.0.265.gbab2e86ba0-goog

Re: [PATCH] MyFirstContribution: rephrase contact info

[Jonathan Nieder]

Emily Shaffer wrote:

> Make an effort not to discourage new users from mailing questions to
> git@vger.kernel.org, and explain the purpose of the mentoring list in
> contrast to the main list.
>
> Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
> ---
>  Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 29 +++++++++++++++------------
>  1 file changed, 16 insertions(+), 13 deletions(-)

Reviewed-by: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>

Thanks for tying up this loose end.

Re: [PATCH] MyFirstContribution: rephrase contact info

[Junio C Hamano]

Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com> writes:

> Emily Shaffer wrote:
>
>> Make an effort not to discourage new users from mailing questions to
>> git@vger.kernel.org, and explain the purpose of the mentoring list in
>> contrast to the main list.
>>
>> Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
>> ---
>>  Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 29 +++++++++++++++------------
>>  1 file changed, 16 insertions(+), 13 deletions(-)
>
> Reviewed-by: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>
>
> Thanks for tying up this loose end.

Thanks, both.  Let's merge this to 'next' and down to 'master', if
we do not hear a better suggestion while waiting for a couple more
days.