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From: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>
To: Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com>
Cc: Ben Peart <peartben@gmail.com>,
	Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason <avarab@gmail.com>,
	git@vger.kernel.org, pclouds@gmail.com,
	Ben Peart <benpeart@microsoft.com>,
	jonathantanmy@google.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH 5/5] index: offer advice for unknown index extensions
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 17:03:09 -0800
Message-ID: <20181121010309.GE149929@google.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <xmqqefbf9t4j.fsf@gitster-ct.c.googlers.com>

Junio C Hamano wrote:

>              This series has a strong smell of pushing back by the
> toolsmiths who refuse to promptly upgrade to help their users, and
> that is why I do not feel entirely happy with this series.

Last reply, I promise. :)

This sentence might have the key to the misunderstanding.  Let me say
a little more about where this showed up in the internal deployment
here, to clarify things a little.

At Google we deploy snapshots of the "next" branch approximately
weekly so that we can find problems early before they affect a
published release.  We rely on the ability to roll back quickly when a
problem is discovered, and we might care more about compatibility than
some others because of that.

A popular tool within Google has a bundled copy of Git (also a
snapshot of the "next" branch, but from a few weeks prior) and when we
deployed Git with the EOIE and IEOT extensions, users of that tool
very quickly reported the mysterious message.

That said, the maintainers of that tool did not complain at all, so
hopefully I can allay your worries about toolsmiths pushing back.
Once the problem reached my attention (a few days later than I would
have liked it to), the Git team at Google knew that we could not roll
back and were certainly alarmed about what that means about our
ability to cope with other problems should we need to.  But we were
able to quickly update that popular tool --- no issue.

Instead, we ran into a number of other users running into the same
problem, when sharing repositories between machines using sshfs, etc.
That, plus the aforementioned inability to roll back Git if we need
to, meant that this was a serious issue so we quickly addressed it in
the internal installation.

In general, we haven't had much trouble getting people to use Git
2.19.1 or newer.  So the problem here does not have to do with users
being slow to upgrade.

Instead, it's simply that upgrading Git should not cause the older,
widely deployed version of Git to complain about the repositories it
acts on.  That's a recipe for difficult debugging situations, it can
lead to people upgrading less quickly and reporting bugs later, and
all in all it's a bad situation to be in.  I've used tools like
Subversion that would upgrade repositories so they are unusable by the
previous version and experienced all of these problems.

So I consider it important *to Git upstream* to handle this well in
the Git 2.20 release.  We can flip the default soon after, even as
soon as 2.21.

Moreover, I am not the only one who ran into this --- e.g. from [1],
2018-10-19:

  17:10 <peff> jrnieder: Yes, I noticed that annoyance myself. ;)
  17:11 <newren> Yeah, I saw that message a few times and was slightly
                 annoyed as well.

Now, a meta point.  Throughout this discussion, I have been hoping for
some acknowledgement of the problem --- e.g. an "I am sympathetic to
what you are trying to do, but <X>".  I wasn't able to find that, and
that is part of what contributed to the feeling of not being heard.

Thanks for your patient explanations, and hope that helps,
Jonathan

[1] https://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/git-devel?date=2018-10-19#l114

  parent reply index

Thread overview: 199+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-08-23 15:41 [PATCH v1] read-cache: speed up index load through parallelization Ben Peart
2018-08-23 17:31 ` Stefan Beller
2018-08-23 19:44   ` Ben Peart
2018-08-24 18:40   ` Duy Nguyen
2018-08-28 14:53     ` Ben Peart
2018-08-23 18:06 ` Junio C Hamano
2018-08-23 20:33   ` Ben Peart
2018-08-24 15:37     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-08-24 15:57       ` Duy Nguyen
2018-08-24 17:28         ` Ben Peart
2018-08-25  6:44         ` [PATCH] read-cache.c: optimize reading index format v4 Nguyễn Thái Ngọc Duy
2018-08-27 19:36           ` Junio C Hamano
2018-08-28 19:25             ` Duy Nguyen
2018-08-28 23:54               ` Ben Peart
2018-08-29 17:14               ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-04 16:08             ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-02 13:19           ` [PATCH v2 0/1] " Nguyễn Thái Ngọc Duy
2018-09-02 13:19             ` [PATCH v2 1/1] read-cache.c: " Nguyễn Thái Ngọc Duy
2018-09-04 18:58               ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-04 19:31               ` Junio C Hamano
2018-08-24 18:20       ` [PATCH v1] read-cache: speed up index load through parallelization Duy Nguyen
2018-08-24 18:40         ` Ben Peart
2018-08-24 19:00           ` Duy Nguyen
2018-08-24 19:57             ` Ben Peart
2018-08-29 15:25 ` [PATCH v2 0/3] " Ben Peart
2018-08-29 15:25   ` [PATCH v2 1/3] " Ben Peart
2018-08-29 17:14     ` Junio C Hamano
2018-08-29 21:35       ` Ben Peart
2018-09-03 19:16     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-08-29 15:25   ` [PATCH v2 2/3] read-cache: load cache extensions on worker thread Ben Peart
2018-08-29 17:12     ` Junio C Hamano
2018-08-29 21:42       ` Ben Peart
2018-08-29 22:19         ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-03 19:21     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-03 19:27       ` Duy Nguyen
2018-08-29 15:25   ` [PATCH v2 3/3] read-cache: micro-optimize expand_name_field() to speed up V4 index parsing Ben Peart
2018-09-06 21:03 ` [PATCH v3 0/4] read-cache: speed up index load through parallelization Ben Peart
2018-09-06 21:03   ` [PATCH v3 1/4] read-cache: optimize expand_name_field() to speed up V4 index parsing Ben Peart
2018-09-06 21:03   ` [PATCH v3 2/4] eoie: add End of Index Entry (EOIE) extension Ben Peart
2018-09-07 17:55     ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-07 20:23       ` Ben Peart
2018-09-08  6:29         ` Martin Ågren
2018-09-08 14:03           ` Ben Peart
2018-09-08 17:08             ` Martin Ågren
2018-09-06 21:03   ` [PATCH v3 3/4] read-cache: load cache extensions on a worker thread Ben Peart
2018-09-07 21:10     ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-08 14:56       ` Ben Peart
2018-09-06 21:03   ` [PATCH v3 4/4] read-cache: speed up index load through parallelization Ben Peart
2018-09-07  4:16     ` Torsten Bögershausen
2018-09-07 13:43       ` Ben Peart
2018-09-07 17:21   ` [PATCH v3 0/4] " Junio C Hamano
2018-09-07 18:31     ` Ben Peart
2018-09-08 13:18     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-11 23:26 ` [PATCH v4 0/5] " Ben Peart
2018-09-11 23:26   ` [PATCH v4 1/5] eoie: add End of Index Entry (EOIE) extension Ben Peart
2018-09-11 23:26   ` [PATCH v4 2/5] read-cache: load cache extensions on a worker thread Ben Peart
2018-09-11 23:26   ` [PATCH v4 3/5] read-cache: speed up index load through parallelization Ben Peart
2018-09-11 23:26   ` [PATCH v4 4/5] read-cache.c: optimize reading index format v4 Ben Peart
2018-09-11 23:26   ` [PATCH v4 5/5] read-cache: clean up casting and byte decoding Ben Peart
2018-09-12 14:34   ` [PATCH v4 0/5] read-cache: speed up index load through parallelization Ben Peart
2018-09-12 16:18 ` [PATCH v5 " Ben Peart
2018-09-12 16:18   ` [PATCH v5 1/5] eoie: add End of Index Entry (EOIE) extension Ben Peart
2018-09-13 22:44     ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-15 10:02     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-17 14:54       ` Ben Peart
2018-09-17 16:05         ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-17 17:31           ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-17 17:38             ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-17 19:08               ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-12 16:18   ` [PATCH v5 2/5] read-cache: load cache extensions on a worker thread Ben Peart
2018-09-15 10:22     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-15 10:24       ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-17 16:38         ` Ben Peart
2018-09-15 16:23       ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-17 17:19         ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-17 16:26       ` Ben Peart
2018-09-17 16:45         ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-17 21:32       ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-12 16:18   ` [PATCH v5 3/5] read-cache: load cache entries on worker threads Ben Peart
2018-09-15 10:31     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-17 17:25       ` Ben Peart
2018-09-15 11:07     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-15 11:09       ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-17 18:52         ` Ben Peart
2018-09-15 11:29     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-12 16:18   ` [PATCH v5 4/5] read-cache.c: optimize reading index format v4 Ben Peart
2018-09-12 16:18   ` [PATCH v5 5/5] read-cache: clean up casting and byte decoding Ben Peart
2018-09-26 19:54 ` [PATCH v6 0/7] speed up index load through parallelization Ben Peart
2018-09-26 19:54   ` [PATCH v6 1/7] read-cache.c: optimize reading index format v4 Ben Peart
2018-09-26 19:54   ` [PATCH v6 2/7] read-cache: clean up casting and byte decoding Ben Peart
2018-09-26 19:54   ` [PATCH v6 3/7] eoie: add End of Index Entry (EOIE) extension Ben Peart
2018-09-28  0:19     ` SZEDER Gábor
2018-09-28 18:38       ` Ben Peart
2018-09-29  0:51     ` SZEDER Gábor
2018-09-29  5:45     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-09-29 18:24       ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-26 19:54   ` [PATCH v6 4/7] config: add new index.threads config setting Ben Peart
2018-09-28  0:26     ` SZEDER Gábor
2018-09-28 13:39       ` Ben Peart
2018-09-28 17:07         ` Junio C Hamano
2018-09-28 19:41           ` Ben Peart
2018-09-28 20:30             ` Ramsay Jones
2018-09-28 22:15               ` Junio C Hamano
2018-10-01 13:17                 ` Ben Peart
2018-10-01 15:06                   ` SZEDER Gábor
2018-09-26 19:54   ` [PATCH v6 5/7] read-cache: load cache extensions on a worker thread Ben Peart
2018-09-26 19:54   ` [PATCH v6 6/7] ieot: add Index Entry Offset Table (IEOT) extension Ben Peart
2018-09-26 19:54   ` [PATCH v6 7/7] read-cache: load cache entries on worker threads Ben Peart
2018-09-26 22:06   ` [PATCH v6 0/7] speed up index load through parallelization Junio C Hamano
2018-09-27 17:13   ` Duy Nguyen
2018-10-01 13:45 ` [PATCH v7 " Ben Peart
2018-10-01 13:45   ` [PATCH v7 1/7] read-cache.c: optimize reading index format v4 Ben Peart
2018-10-01 13:45   ` [PATCH v7 2/7] read-cache: clean up casting and byte decoding Ben Peart
2018-10-01 15:10     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-10-01 13:45   ` [PATCH v7 3/7] eoie: add End of Index Entry (EOIE) extension Ben Peart
2018-10-01 15:17     ` SZEDER Gábor
2018-10-02 14:34       ` Ben Peart
2018-10-01 15:30     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-10-02 15:13       ` Ben Peart
2018-10-01 13:45   ` [PATCH v7 4/7] config: add new index.threads config setting Ben Peart
2018-10-01 13:45   ` [PATCH v7 5/7] read-cache: load cache extensions on a worker thread Ben Peart
2018-10-01 15:50     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-10-02 15:00       ` Ben Peart
2018-10-01 13:45   ` [PATCH v7 6/7] ieot: add Index Entry Offset Table (IEOT) extension Ben Peart
2018-10-01 16:27     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-10-02 16:34       ` Ben Peart
2018-10-02 17:02         ` Duy Nguyen
2018-10-01 13:45   ` [PATCH v7 7/7] read-cache: load cache entries on worker threads Ben Peart
2018-10-01 17:09     ` Duy Nguyen
2018-10-02 19:09       ` Ben Peart
2018-10-10 15:59 ` [PATCH v8 0/7] speed up index load through parallelization Ben Peart
2018-10-10 15:59   ` [PATCH v8 1/7] read-cache.c: optimize reading index format v4 Ben Peart
2018-10-10 15:59   ` [PATCH v8 2/7] read-cache: clean up casting and byte decoding Ben Peart
2018-10-10 15:59   ` [PATCH v8 3/7] eoie: add End of Index Entry (EOIE) extension Ben Peart
2018-10-10 15:59   ` [PATCH v8 4/7] config: add new index.threads config setting Ben Peart
2018-10-10 15:59   ` [PATCH v8 5/7] read-cache: load cache extensions on a worker thread Ben Peart
2018-10-10 15:59   ` [PATCH v8 6/7] ieot: add Index Entry Offset Table (IEOT) extension Ben Peart
2018-10-10 15:59   ` [PATCH v8 7/7] read-cache: load cache entries on worker threads Ben Peart
2018-10-19 16:11     ` Jeff King
2018-10-22  2:14       ` Junio C Hamano
2018-10-22 14:40         ` Ben Peart
2018-10-12  3:18   ` [PATCH v8 0/7] speed up index load through parallelization Junio C Hamano
2018-10-14 12:28   ` Duy Nguyen
2018-10-15 17:33     ` Ben Peart
2018-11-13  0:38   ` [PATCH 0/3] Avoid confusing messages from new index extensions (Re: [PATCH v8 0/7] speed up index load through parallelization) Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-13  0:39     ` [PATCH 1/3] eoie: default to not writing EOIE section Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-13  1:05       ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-13 15:14         ` Ben Peart
2018-11-13 18:25           ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-14  1:36             ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-15  0:19               ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-13  0:39     ` [PATCH 2/3] ieot: default to not writing IEOT section Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-13  0:58       ` Jonathan Tan
2018-11-13  1:09       ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-13  1:12         ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-13 15:37           ` Duy Nguyen
2018-11-13 18:09         ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-13 15:22       ` Ben Peart
2018-11-13 18:18         ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-13 19:15           ` Ben Peart
2018-11-13 21:08             ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-14 18:09               ` Ben Peart
2018-11-15  0:05                 ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-14  3:05         ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-20  6:09           ` [PATCH v2 0/5] Avoid confusing messages from new index extensions Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-20  6:11             ` [PATCH 1/5] eoie: default to not writing EOIE section Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-20 13:06               ` Ben Peart
2018-11-20 13:21                 ` SZEDER Gábor
2018-11-21 16:46                   ` Jeff King
2018-11-22  0:47                     ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-20 15:01               ` Ben Peart
2018-11-20  6:12             ` [PATCH 2/5] ieot: default to not writing IEOT section Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-20 13:07               ` Ben Peart
2018-11-26 19:59                 ` Stefan Beller
2018-11-26 21:47                   ` Ben Peart
2018-11-26 22:02                     ` Stefan Beller
2018-11-27  0:50                   ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-20  6:12             ` [PATCH 3/5] index: do not warn about unrecognized extensions Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-20  6:14             ` [PATCH 4/5] index: make index.threads=true enable ieot and eoie Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-20 13:24               ` Ben Peart
2018-11-20  6:15             ` [PATCH 5/5] index: offer advice for unknown index extensions Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-20  9:26               ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-11-20 13:30                 ` Ben Peart
2018-11-21  0:22                   ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-21  0:39                     ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-21  0:44                       ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-21  5:01                       ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-21  5:04                         ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-21  5:15                         ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-21  5:31                           ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-21  1:03                     ` Jonathan Nieder [this message]
2018-11-21  4:23                       ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-21  4:57                         ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-21  9:30                       ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-11-13  0:40     ` [PATCH 3/3] index: do not warn about unrecognized extensions Jonathan Nieder
2018-11-13  1:10       ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-13 15:25       ` Ben Peart
2018-11-14  3:24       ` Junio C Hamano
2018-11-14 18:19         ` Ben Peart

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