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From: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>
To: demerphq <demerphq@gmail.com>
Cc: "brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net>,
	Johannes Schindelin <Johannes.Schindelin@gmx.de>,
	Git <git@vger.kernel.org>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	agl@google.com, keccak@noekeon.org
Subject: Re: Hash algorithm analysis
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 11:35:24 -0700
Message-ID: <20180723183523.GB9285@aiede.svl.corp.google.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CANgJU+X39NoEoMyLu+FX38=x19LrRqatz_dUpUAc+WFV+Uw+=A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Yves,

demerphq wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jul 2018 at 01:59, brian m. carlson
> <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net> wrote:

>> I will admit that I don't love making this decision by myself, because
>> right now, whatever I pick, somebody is going to be unhappy.
[...]
> I do not envy you this decision.
>
> Personally I would aim towards pushing this decision out to the git
> user base and facilitating things so we can choose whatever hash
> function (and config) we wish, including ones not invented yet.

There are two separate pieces to this.

One is configurability at compile time.  So far that has definitely
been a goal, because we want to be ready to start the transition to
another hash, and quickly, as soon as the new hash is discovered to be
weak.  This also means that people can experiment with new hashes and
in a controlled environment (where the users can afford to build from
source), some users might prefer some bespoke hash for reasons only
known to them. ;-)

Another piece is configurability at run time.  This is a harder sell
because it has some negative effects in the ecosystem:

 - performance impact from users having to maintain a translation table
   between the different hash functions in use

 - security impact, in the form of downgrade attacks

 - dependency bloat, from Git having to be able to compute all hash
   functions permitted in that run-time configuration

The security impact can be mitigated by keeping the list of supported
hashes small (i.e. two or three instead of 10ish).  Each additional
hash function is a potential liability (just as in SSL), so they have
to earn their keep.

The performance impact is unavoidable if we encourage Git servers to
pick their favorite hash function instead of making a decision in the
project.  This can in turn affect security, since it would increase
the switching cost away from SHA-1, with the likely effect being that
most users stay on SHA-1.  I don't want to go there.

So I would say, support for arbitrary hash functions at compile time
and in file formats is important and I encourage you to hold us to
that (when reviewing patches, etc).  But in the standard Git build
configuration that most people run, I believe it is best to support
only SHA-1 + our chosen replacement hash.

Thanks,
Jonathan

  parent reply index

Thread overview: 66+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-06-09 20:56 State of NewHash work, future directions, and discussion brian m. carlson
2018-06-09 21:26 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-06-09 22:49 ` Hash algorithm analysis brian m. carlson
2018-06-11 19:29   ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-06-11 20:20     ` Linus Torvalds
2018-06-11 23:27       ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-06-12  0:11         ` David Lang
2018-06-12  0:45         ` Linus Torvalds
2018-06-11 22:35     ` brian m. carlson
2018-06-12 16:21       ` Gilles Van Assche
2018-06-13 23:58         ` brian m. carlson
2018-06-15 10:33           ` Gilles Van Assche
2018-07-20 21:52     ` brian m. carlson
2018-07-21  0:31       ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-07-21 19:52       ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-07-21 20:25         ` brian m. carlson
2018-07-21 22:38       ` Johannes Schindelin
2018-07-21 23:09         ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-21 23:59         ` brian m. carlson
2018-07-22  9:34           ` Eric Deplagne
2018-07-22 14:21             ` brian m. carlson
2018-07-22 14:55               ` Eric Deplagne
2018-07-26 10:05                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2018-07-22 15:23           ` Joan Daemen
2018-07-22 18:54             ` Adam Langley
2018-07-26 10:31             ` Johannes Schindelin
2018-07-23 12:40           ` demerphq
2018-07-23 12:48             ` Sitaram Chamarty
2018-07-23 12:55               ` demerphq
2018-07-23 18:23               ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-23 17:57             ` Stefan Beller
2018-07-23 18:35             ` Jonathan Nieder [this message]
2018-07-24 19:01       ` Edward Thomson
2018-07-24 20:31         ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-24 20:49           ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-07-24 21:13           ` Junio C Hamano
2018-07-24 22:10             ` brian m. carlson
2018-07-30  9:06               ` Johannes Schindelin
2018-07-30 20:01                 ` Dan Shumow
2018-08-03  2:57                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-09-18 15:18                   ` Joan Daemen
2018-09-18 15:32                     ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-09-18 16:50                     ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-25  8:30             ` [PATCH 0/2] document that NewHash is now SHA-256 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-07-25  8:30             ` [PATCH 1/2] doc hash-function-transition: note the lack of a changelog Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-07-25  8:30             ` [PATCH 2/2] doc hash-function-transition: pick SHA-256 as NewHash Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-07-25 16:45               ` Junio C Hamano
2018-07-25 17:25                 ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-07-25 21:32                   ` Junio C Hamano
2018-07-26 13:41                     ` [PATCH v2 " Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-08-03  7:20                       ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-08-03 16:40                         ` Junio C Hamano
2018-08-03 17:01                           ` Linus Torvalds
2018-08-03 16:42                         ` Linus Torvalds
2018-08-03 17:43                         ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-08-04  8:52                           ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-08-03 17:45                         ` brian m. carlson
2018-07-25 22:56                 ` [PATCH " brian m. carlson
2018-06-11 21:19   ` Hash algorithm analysis Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2018-06-21  8:20     ` Johannes Schindelin
2018-06-21 22:39     ` brian m. carlson
2018-06-11 18:09 ` State of NewHash work, future directions, and discussion Duy Nguyen
2018-06-12  1:28   ` brian m. carlson
2018-06-11 19:01 ` Jonathan Nieder
2018-06-12  2:28   ` brian m. carlson
2018-06-12  2:42     ` Jonathan Nieder

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