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From: Jeff King <peff@peff.net>
To: "Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason" <avarab@gmail.com>
Cc: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	"brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net>,
	Jason Cooper <git@lakedaemon.net>, ankostis <ankostis@gmail.com>,
	Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com>,
	Git Mailing List <git@vger.kernel.org>,
	Stefan Beller <sbeller@google.com>, David Lang <david@lang.hm>,
	Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
	Joey Hess <id@joeyh.name>
Subject: Re: SHA1 collisions found
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2017 16:52:20 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20170226215220.jckz6yzgben4zbyz@sigill.intra.peff.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CACBZZX6fP_JpL+K3XUnke=4m4gZBLu-Afyz5yJkrRnGXHuhR8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 10:38:35PM +0100, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 8:11 PM, Linus Torvalds
> <torvalds@linux-foundation.org> wrote:
> > But yes, SHA3-256 looks like the sane choice. Performance of hashing
> > is important in the sense that it shouldn't _suck_, but is largely
> > secondary. All my profiles on real loads (well, *my* real loads) have
> > shown that zlib performance is actually much more important than SHA1.
> 
> What's the zlib v.s. hash ratio on those profiles? If git is switching
> to another hashing function given the developments in faster
> compression algorithms (gzip v.s. snappy v.s. zstd v.s. lz4)[1] we'll
> probably switch to another compression algorithm sooner than later.
> 
> Would compression still be the bottleneck by far with zstd, how about with lz4?
> 
> 1. https://code.facebook.com/posts/1658392934479273/smaller-and-faster-data-compression-with-zstandard/

zstd does help in normal operations that access lots of blobs. Here are
some timings:

  http://public-inbox.org/git/20161023080552.lma2v6zxmyaiiqz5@sigill.intra.peff.net/

Compression is part of the on-the-wire packfile format, so it introduces
compatibility headaches. Unlike the hash, it _can_ be a local thing
negotiated between the two ends, and a server with zstd data could
convert on-the-fly to zlib. You just wouldn't want to do so on a server
because it's really expensive (or you double your cache footprint to
store both).

If there were a hash flag day, we _could_ make sure all post-flag-day
implementations have zstd, and just start using that (it transparently
handles old zlib data, too). I'm just hesitant to through in the kitchen
sink and make the hash transition harder than it already is.

Hash performance doesn't matter much for normal read operations. If your
implementation is really _slow_ it does matter for a few operations
(notably index-pack receiving a large push or fetch). Some timings:

  http://public-inbox.org/git/20170223230621.43anex65ndoqbgnf@sigill.intra.peff.net/

If the new algorithm is faster than SHA-1, that might be measurable in
those operations, too, but obviously less dramatic, as hashing is just a
percentage of the total operation (so it can balloon the time if it's
slow, but optimizing it can only save so much).

I don't know if the per-hash setup cost of any of the new algorithms is
higher than SHA-1. We care as much about hashing lots of small content
as we do about sustained throughput of a single hash.

-Peff

  reply	other threads:[~2017-02-26 21:52 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 136+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2017-02-23 16:43 SHA1 collisions found Joey Hess
2017-02-23 17:00 ` David Lang
2017-02-23 17:02 ` Junio C Hamano
2017-02-23 17:12   ` David Lang
2017-02-23 20:49     ` Jakub Narębski
2017-02-23 20:57       ` Jeff King
2017-02-23 17:18   ` Junio C Hamano
2017-02-23 17:35   ` Joey Hess
2017-02-23 17:52     ` Linus Torvalds
2017-02-23 18:21       ` Joey Hess
2017-02-23 18:31         ` Joey Hess
2017-02-23 19:13           ` Morten Welinder
2017-02-24 15:52             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2017-02-23 18:40         ` Linus Torvalds
2017-02-23 18:46           ` Jeff King
2017-02-23 19:09             ` Linus Torvalds
2017-02-23 19:32               ` Jeff King
2017-02-23 19:47                 ` Linus Torvalds
2017-02-23 19:57                   ` Jeff King
     [not found]                     ` <alpine.LFD.2.20.1702231428540.30435@i7.lan>
2017-02-23 22:43                       ` Jeff King
2017-02-23 22:50                         ` Linus Torvalds
2017-02-23 23:05                         ` Jeff King
2017-02-23 23:05                           ` [PATCH 1/3] add collision-detecting sha1 implementation Jeff King
2017-02-23 23:15                             ` Stefan Beller
2017-02-24  0:01                               ` Jeff King
2017-02-24  0:12                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2017-02-24  0:16                                   ` Jeff King
2017-02-23 23:05                           ` [PATCH 2/3] sha1dc: adjust header includes for git Jeff King
2017-02-23 23:06                           ` [PATCH 3/3] Makefile: add USE_SHA1DC knob Jeff King
2017-02-24 18:36                             ` HW42
2017-02-24 18:57                               ` Jeff King
2017-02-23 23:14                           ` SHA1 collisions found Linus Torvalds
2017-02-28 18:41                           ` Junio C Hamano
2017-02-28 19:07                             ` Junio C Hamano
2017-02-28 19:20                               ` Jeff King
2017-03-01  8:57                                 ` Dan Shumow
2017-02-28 19:34                               ` Linus Torvalds
2017-02-28 19:52                                 ` Shawn Pearce
2017-02-28 22:56                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2017-02-28 21:22                                 ` Dan Shumow
2017-02-28 22:50                                   ` Marc Stevens
2017-02-28 23:11                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2017-03-01 19:05                                       ` Jeff King
2017-02-23 20:47               ` Øyvind A. Holm
2017-02-23 20:46             ` Joey Hess
2017-02-23 18:42         ` Jeff King
2017-02-23 17:52     ` David Lang
2017-02-23 19:20   ` David Lang
2017-02-23 17:19 ` Linus Torvalds
2017-02-23 17:29   ` Linus Torvalds
2017-02-23 18:10   ` Joey Hess
2017-02-23 18:29     ` Linus Torvalds
2017-02-23 18:38     ` Junio C Hamano
2017-02-24  9:42 ` Duy Nguyen
2017-02-25 19:04   ` brian m. carlson
2017-02-27 13:29     ` René Scharfe
2017-02-28 13:25       ` brian m. carlson
2017-02-24 15:13 ` Ian Jackson
2017-02-24 17:04   ` ankostis
2017-02-24 17:23   ` Jason Cooper
2017-02-25 23:22     ` ankostis
2017-02-24 17:32   ` Junio C Hamano
2017-02-24 17:45     ` David Lang
2017-02-24 18:14       ` Junio C Hamano
2017-02-24 18:58         ` Stefan Beller
2017-02-24 19:20           ` Junio C Hamano
2017-02-24 20:05             ` ankostis
2017-02-24 20:32               ` Junio C Hamano
2017-02-25  0:31                 ` ankostis
2017-02-26  0:16                   ` Jason Cooper
2017-02-26 17:38                     ` brian m. carlson
2017-02-26 19:11                       ` Linus Torvalds
2017-02-26 21:38                         ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-02-26 21:52                           ` Jeff King [this message]
2017-02-27 13:00                             ` Transition plan for git to move to a new hash function Ian Jackson
2017-02-27 14:37                               ` Why BLAKE2? Markus Trippelsdorf
2017-02-27 15:42                                 ` Ian Jackson
2017-02-27 19:26                               ` Transition plan for git to move to a new hash function Tony Finch
2017-02-28 21:47                               ` brian m. carlson
2017-03-02 18:13                                 ` Ian Jackson
2017-03-04 22:49                                   ` brian m. carlson
2017-03-05 13:45                                     ` Ian Jackson
2017-03-05 23:45                                       ` brian m. carlson
2017-02-24 20:05             ` SHA1 collisions found Junio C Hamano
2017-02-24 20:33           ` Philip Oakley
2017-02-24 23:39     ` Jeff King
2017-02-25  0:39       ` Linus Torvalds
2017-02-25  0:54         ` Linus Torvalds
2017-02-25  1:16         ` Jeff King
2017-02-26 18:55           ` Junio C Hamano
2017-02-25  6:10         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-02-26  1:13           ` Jason Cooper
2017-02-26  5:18             ` Jeff King
2017-02-26 18:30               ` brian m. carlson
2017-03-02 21:46               ` Brandon Williams
2017-03-03 11:13                 ` Jeff King
2017-03-03 14:54                   ` Ian Jackson
2017-03-03 22:18                     ` Jeff King
2017-03-02 19:55         ` Linus Torvalds
2017-03-02 20:43           ` Junio C Hamano
2017-03-02 21:21             ` Linus Torvalds
2017-03-02 21:54               ` Joey Hess
2017-03-02 22:27                 ` Linus Torvalds
2017-03-03  1:50                   ` Mike Hommey
2017-03-03  2:19                     ` Linus Torvalds
2017-03-03 11:04           ` Jeff King
2017-03-03 21:47           ` Stefan Beller
2017-02-25  1:00       ` David Lang
2017-02-25  1:15         ` Stefan Beller
2017-02-25  1:21         ` Jeff King
2017-02-25  1:39           ` David Lang
2017-02-25  1:47             ` Jeff King
2017-02-25  1:56               ` David Lang
2017-02-25  2:28             ` Jacob Keller
2017-02-25  2:26           ` Jacob Keller
2017-02-25  5:39             ` grarpamp
2017-02-24 23:43     ` Ian Jackson
2017-02-25  0:06       ` Ian Jackson
2017-02-25 18:50     ` brian m. carlson
2017-02-25 19:26       ` Jeff King
2017-02-25 22:09         ` Mike Hommey
2017-02-26 17:38           ` brian m. carlson
2017-02-24 22:47 ` Jakub Narębski
2017-02-24 22:53   ` Santiago Torres
2017-02-24 23:05     ` Jakub Narębski
2017-02-24 23:24       ` Øyvind A. Holm
2017-02-24 23:06   ` Jeff King
2017-02-24 23:35     ` Jakub Narębski
2017-02-25 22:35     ` Lars Schneider
2017-02-26  0:46       ` Jeff King
2017-02-26 18:22         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-02-26 18:57     ` Thomas Braun
2017-02-26 21:30       ` Jeff King
2017-02-27  9:57         ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2017-02-27 10:43           ` Jeff King
2017-02-27 12:39             ` Morten Welinder

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