Draft of Git Rev News edition 18

Draft of Git Rev News edition 18

[Christian Couder]

Hi,

A draft of a new Git Rev News edition is available here:

  https://github.com/git/git.github.io/blob/master/rev_news/drafts/edition-18.md

Everyone is welcome to contribute in any section either by editing the
above page on GitHub and sending a pull request, or by commenting on
this GitHub issue:

  https://github.com/git/git.github.io/issues/170

You can also reply to this email.

I tried to cc everyone who appears in this edition but maybe I missed
some people, sorry about that.

Thomas, Nicola and myself plan to publish this edition on Wednesday
August 17. Sorry for the late draft again.

Thanks,
Christian.

Re: Draft of Git Rev News edition 18

[Junio C Hamano]

Christian Couder <christian.couder@gmail.com> writes:

> You can also reply to this email.

I am not sure that is to be recommended, as that ends up going to
the list, but anyway, these

 - Michael's "finding better -/+ assignment in diff using indent
   heuristic"

 - Philip Oakley's updates to revision range notation documentation

 - Kevin Willford's rather clever optimization on internal patch-id
   computation that is done to exclude already-applied commit while
   rebasing

are interesting/noteworthy topics that may want to be covered in the
discussion/review section.

Re: Draft of Git Rev News edition 18

[Philip Oakley]

From: "Christian Couder" <christian.couder@gmail.com>
> Hi,
>
> A draft of a new Git Rev News edition is available here:
>
> 
> https://github.com/git/git.github.io/blob/master/rev_news/drafts/edition-18.md
>
> Everyone is welcome to contribute in any section either by editing the
> above page on GitHub and sending a pull request, or by commenting on
> this GitHub issue:
>
>  https://github.com/git/git.github.io/issues/170
>
> You can also reply to this email.
>
> I tried to cc everyone who appears in this edition but maybe I missed
> some people, sorry about that.
>
> Thomas, Nicola and myself plan to publish this edition on Wednesday
> August 17. Sorry for the late draft again.
>
> Thanks,
> Christian.
> --

I see you mention in passing (weel in the small headings near the bottom) 
that gmane web interface has gone away. It may be worth noting a few of the 
alternatives, and in particular Eric's newly updated public-inbox 
https://public-inbox.org/git/.

I've found it very useful and probably easier to use. (now I've seen 
https://public-inbox.org/design_www.html)

--
Philip 

Re: Draft of Git Rev News edition 18

[Eric Wong]

Philip Oakley <philipoakley@iee.org> wrote:
> From: "Christian Couder" <christian.couder@gmail.com>
> >You can also reply to this email.
> 
> I see you mention in passing (weel in the small headings near the bottom)
> that gmane web interface has gone away. It may be worth noting a few of the
> alternatives, and in particular Eric's newly updated public-inbox
> https://public-inbox.org/git/.

Thanks, I will also add that existing gmane links can be looked up
in instance I maintain via:

	public-inbox.org/git/?q=gmane:123456

It might be worth it to convert numeric links to Message-IDs in older
editions, as I also published a mapping at:

   https://public-inbox.org/.temp/gmane.comp.version-control.git-300599.txt.gz

> I've found it very useful and probably easier to use. (now I've seen
> https://public-inbox.org/design_www.html)

Based on closer reading of RFC3986, section 3.3, I deployed a
change to URL generation last night so the "%40" escape for '@'
no longer shows up in generated URLs (along with a few other
characters):

   https://public-inbox.org/meta/20160814105152.21925-1-e@80x24.org/

It might be worth updating this edition to avoid the percent
escaping since it might confuse users about what the Message-IDs
are (and to avoid users passing "%40" into their MUA)

Old URLs will always continue working, of course.

Re: Draft of Git Rev News edition 18

[Philip Oakley]

From: "Eric Wong" <e@80x24.org>
> Philip Oakley <philipoakley@iee.org> wrote:
>> From: "Christian Couder" <christian.couder@gmail.com>
>> >You can also reply to this email.
>>
>> I see you mention in passing (weel in the small headings near the bottom)
>> that gmane web interface has gone away. It may be worth noting a few of 
>> the
>> alternatives, and in particular Eric's newly updated public-inbox
>> https://public-inbox.org/git/.
>
> Thanks,

Would including a 'help' link on the main pages be possible? Maybe to the 
www-design page or whatever, just to make the users aware of the wider 
resourses, and a few key ways of entering search queries (such as the 
"gmane:123456" which gets that msg, while "gmane/123456" will get all 
messages that refered to that message (pure text search)..


>      I will also add that existing gmane links can be looked up
> in instance I maintain via:
>
> public-inbox.org/git/?q=gmane:123456
>
[snip]
--
Philip 

Re: Draft of Git Rev News edition 18

[Eric Wong]

Philip Oakley <philipoakley@iee.org> wrote:
> From: "Eric Wong" <e@80x24.org>
> >Philip Oakley <philipoakley@iee.org> wrote:
> >>From: "Christian Couder" <christian.couder@gmail.com>
> >>>You can also reply to this email.
> >>
> >>I see you mention in passing (weel in the small headings near the bottom)
> >>that gmane web interface has gone away. It may be worth noting a few of
> >>the
> >>alternatives, and in particular Eric's newly updated public-inbox
> >>https://public-inbox.org/git/.
> >
> >Thanks,
> 
> Would including a 'help' link on the main pages be possible?

Yes, there'll definitely be online help with generic
instructions and also instructions specific to each instance
so things like "gmane:N" can be documented.

There's also bunch of search prefixes I need to document, like
"s:" for subject and whatever the built-in timestamp/date range
parser for Xapian is.  I keep forgetting the Xapian query syntax
myself!

Re: Draft of Git Rev News edition 18

[Christian Couder]

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 1:10 AM, Eric Wong <e@80x24.org> wrote:
> Philip Oakley <philipoakley@iee.org> wrote:
>> From: "Christian Couder" <christian.couder@gmail.com>
>> >You can also reply to this email.
>>
>> I see you mention in passing (weel in the small headings near the bottom)
>> that gmane web interface has gone away. It may be worth noting a few of the
>> alternatives, and in particular Eric's newly updated public-inbox
>> https://public-inbox.org/git/.
>
> Thanks, I will also add that existing gmane links can be looked up
> in instance I maintain via:
>
>         public-inbox.org/git/?q=gmane:123456

Yeah, I agree that we really needed to add something about
public-inbox, so I added the following:

@@ -147,7 +147,13 @@ __Light reading__

 __Git tools and sites__

-* Gmane (a mailing list archive that was used heavily by some Git
developers) [shut down its web
site](https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/comment-page-1/#comment-13502).
+* Gmane (a mailing list archive that was used heavily by some Git developers)
+[shut down its web
site](https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/comment-page-1/#comment-13502).
+* [public-inbox](https://public-inbox.org/), which is under heavy
developement by Eric Wong, has
+[a git archive](https://public-inbox.org/git/) that is now used a lot
instead of Gmane.
+[It allows](https://public-inbox.org/design_www.html) looking up
+existing Gmane links using their Gmane id with URLs like
+`http://public-inbox.org/git/?q=gmane:123456`.

 ## Credits

---
(See: https://github.com/git/git.github.io/commit/66d72b0bd9ef38587dd7d5c4c6825a7984f2f2af)

Thanks!

Re: Draft of Git Rev News edition 18

[Christian Couder]

On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 10:58 PM, Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com> wrote:
> Christian Couder <christian.couder@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> You can also reply to this email.
>
> I am not sure that is to be recommended, as that ends up going to
> the list, but anyway, these
>
>  - Michael's "finding better -/+ assignment in diff using indent
>    heuristic"
>
>  - Philip Oakley's updates to revision range notation documentation
>
>  - Kevin Willford's rather clever optimization on internal patch-id
>    computation that is done to exclude already-applied commit while
>    rebasing
>
> are interesting/noteworthy topics that may want to be covered in the
> discussion/review section.

Yeah, these are great topics and I would be glad if they could be
covered by someone else ;-)

Re: Draft of Git Rev News edition 18

[Jakub Narębski]

W dniu 14.08.2016 o 23:10, Philip Oakley pisze:
> From: "Christian Couder" <christian.couder@gmail.com>
>>
>> A draft of a new Git Rev News edition is available here:
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/git/git.github.io/blob/master/rev_news/drafts/edition-18.md
>>
>> Everyone is welcome to contribute in any section either by editing the
>> above page on GitHub and sending a pull request, or by commenting on
>> this GitHub issue:
>>
>>  https://github.com/git/git.github.io/issues/170
>>
>> You can also reply to this email.
> 
> I see you mention in passing (well in the small headings near the bottom)
> that gmane web interface has gone away. It may be worth noting a few of
> the alternatives, and in particular Eric's newly updated public-inbox
> https://public-inbox.org/git/.

It would be nice to turn it into mini-story rather than just putting
a link.

Additional references / information:

* "Alternatives to mid.gmane.org?" thread, starting with
  Message-Id: <481D1EE2-6A66-418F-AB28-95947BBF3680@gmail.com>

  Mentions a few alternatives besides public-inbox:

     https://marc.info/?i=%s
     https://mid.mail-archive.com/%s
     https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/%s

  for finding message based on Message-Id

  NOTE: there are a few mailing list archive sites not mentioned
  in this thread, like Nabble, some of them listed on (not updated)
  https://git.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/GitCommunity

* "Ingebrigtsen: The End of Gmane?" short note / article on LWN.net,
  https://lwn.net/Articles/695695/ [Posted July 28, 2016 by jake],
  part of "Announcements" (http://lwn.net/Articles/695980/) section
  of LWN.net Weekly Edition for August 4, 2016 
  (http://lwn.net/Articles/695974/)

> I've found it very useful and probably easier to use.
> (now I've seen https://public-inbox.org/design_www.html)

It's a great pity that https://public-inbox.org/ is just
directory index, not a true home page.

-- 
Jakub Narębski

Re: Draft of Git Rev News edition 18

[Jakub Narębski]

W dniu 15.08.2016 o 20:08, Jakub Narębski pisze:
[...]
> Additional references / information:
> 
> * "Alternatives to mid.gmane.org?" thread, starting with
>   Message-Id: <481D1EE2-6A66-418F-AB28-95947BBF3680@gmail.com>
> 
>   Mentions a few alternatives besides public-inbox:
> 
>      https://marc.info/?i=%s
>      https://mid.mail-archive.com/%s
>      https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/%s
> 
>   for finding message based on Message-Id
> 
>   NOTE: there are a few mailing list archive sites not mentioned
>   in this thread, like Nabble, some of them listed on (not updated)
>   https://git.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/GitCommunity
> 
> * "Ingebrigtsen: The End of Gmane?" short note / article on LWN.net,
>   https://lwn.net/Articles/695695/ [Posted July 28, 2016 by jake],
>   part of "Announcements" (http://lwn.net/Articles/695980/) section
>   of LWN.net Weekly Edition for August 4, 2016 
>   (http://lwn.net/Articles/695974/)

* "A note from the maintainer" from 12 Aug 2016
  Message-Id: <xmqq1t1twymf.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com>
  
  includes updated links to mailing list archives, post-Gmane,
  and some discussion about public-archive.org

-- 
Jakub Narębski

Re: Draft of Git Rev News edition 18

[Eric Wong]

Jakub Narębski <jnareb@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's a great pity that https://public-inbox.org/ is just
> directory index, not a true home page.

+Cc meta@public-inbox.org

I'm not sure one could do better while staying true to the
minimalist nature of plain-text email.

In the spirit of decentralization, there may not be /a/
homepage, but many.   Everything is meant to clonable with each
public-inbox, so maybe every public-inbox will have a code
branch attached to it with the source+docs bundled.


At least for now, other pages are more easily discoverable[1]
but one day I hope to have repobrowse[2] running there (and
maybe everywhere).


For now, I am prioritizing user/admin/hacker documentation so
more instances can exist.  I'll probably get some online help
stuff up tomorrow.


[1] at least the top-level of public-inbox.org already has more
    content than both YHBT.net and bogomips.org combined :)

[2] git clone -b repobrowse https://public-inbox.org/ ...
    (idle the moment: think cgit|gitweb with the same (lack of)
     style as public-inbox, +search, +mail thread integration)

Re: Draft of Git Rev News edition 18

[Josh Triplett]

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 09:30:27AM +0000, Eric Wong wrote:
> Jakub Narębski <jnareb@gmail.com> wrote:
> > It's a great pity that https://public-inbox.org/ is just
> > directory index, not a true home page.
> 
> +Cc meta@public-inbox.org
> 
> I'm not sure one could do better while staying true to the
> minimalist nature of plain-text email.
> 
> In the spirit of decentralization, there may not be /a/
> homepage, but many.   Everything is meant to clonable with each
> public-inbox, so maybe every public-inbox will have a code
> branch attached to it with the source+docs bundled.

It'd be nice if it had a prominent list of all lists available; as far
as I can tell, the main page has no link to /git/.

Re: Draft of Git Rev News edition 18

[Christian Couder]

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 8:08 PM, Jakub Narębski <jnareb@gmail.com> wrote:
> W dniu 14.08.2016 o 23:10, Philip Oakley pisze:
>> From: "Christian Couder" <christian.couder@gmail.com>
>>>
>>> A draft of a new Git Rev News edition is available here:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://github.com/git/git.github.io/blob/master/rev_news/drafts/edition-18.md
>>>
>>> Everyone is welcome to contribute in any section either by editing the
>>> above page on GitHub and sending a pull request, or by commenting on
>>> this GitHub issue:
>>>
>>>  https://github.com/git/git.github.io/issues/170
>>>
>>> You can also reply to this email.
>>
>> I see you mention in passing (well in the small headings near the bottom)
>> that gmane web interface has gone away. It may be worth noting a few of
>> the alternatives, and in particular Eric's newly updated public-inbox
>> https://public-inbox.org/git/.
>
> It would be nice to turn it into mini-story rather than just putting
> a link.

Yeah, it would be also very welcome if someone could send a patch or a
pull request for a mini-story about it.

> Additional references / information:
>
> * "Alternatives to mid.gmane.org?" thread, starting with
>   Message-Id: <481D1EE2-6A66-418F-AB28-95947BBF3680@gmail.com>
>
>   Mentions a few alternatives besides public-inbox:
>
>      https://marc.info/?i=%s
>      https://mid.mail-archive.com/%s
>      https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/%s
>
>   for finding message based on Message-Id
>
>   NOTE: there are a few mailing list archive sites not mentioned
>   in this thread, like Nabble, some of them listed on (not updated)
>   https://git.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/GitCommunity
>
> * "Ingebrigtsen: The End of Gmane?" short note / article on LWN.net,
>   https://lwn.net/Articles/695695/ [Posted July 28, 2016 by jake],
>   part of "Announcements" (http://lwn.net/Articles/695980/) section
>   of LWN.net Weekly Edition for August 4, 2016
>   (http://lwn.net/Articles/695974/)

Thanks for this. Maybe you could just add those in a pull request or a
patch to the "Git tools and sites" sub section just after the item
about public-inbox?

Thanks anyway!

Re: Draft of Git Rev News edition 18

[Eric Wong]

Josh Triplett <josh@joshtriplett.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 09:30:27AM +0000, Eric Wong wrote:
> > Jakub Narębski <jnareb@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > It's a great pity that https://public-inbox.org/ is just
> > > directory index, not a true home page.
> > 
> > +Cc meta@public-inbox.org
> > 
> > I'm not sure one could do better while staying true to the
> > minimalist nature of plain-text email.
> > 
> > In the spirit of decentralization, there may not be /a/
> > homepage, but many.   Everything is meant to clonable with each
> > public-inbox, so maybe every public-inbox will have a code
> > branch attached to it with the source+docs bundled.
> 
> It'd be nice if it had a prominent list of all lists available; as far
> as I can tell, the main page has no link to /git/.

I'm not sure that's necessary; most of the traffic seems to come
from /git/MESSAGE_ID/ links posted by others.  So it's
probably more inside-out exposure than anything.

As for other projects, I'm not aware of anybody else using it,
yet.  I have some small projects using it, but most of those are
one-off throwaways and I'm not comfortable promoting those along
with public-inbox.  I admit: I'm not comfortable promoting
anything I do, really.

I do wish more people would start using the .onions, though...

Re: Draft of Git Rev News edition 18

[Josh Triplett]

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 09:27:04PM +0000, Eric Wong wrote:
> Josh Triplett <josh@joshtriplett.org> wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 09:30:27AM +0000, Eric Wong wrote:
> > > Jakub Narębski <jnareb@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > It's a great pity that https://public-inbox.org/ is just
> > > > directory index, not a true home page.
> > > 
> > > +Cc meta@public-inbox.org
> > > 
> > > I'm not sure one could do better while staying true to the
> > > minimalist nature of plain-text email.
> > > 
> > > In the spirit of decentralization, there may not be /a/
> > > homepage, but many.   Everything is meant to clonable with each
> > > public-inbox, so maybe every public-inbox will have a code
> > > branch attached to it with the source+docs bundled.
> > 
> > It'd be nice if it had a prominent list of all lists available; as far
> > as I can tell, the main page has no link to /git/.
> 
> I'm not sure that's necessary; most of the traffic seems to come
> from /git/MESSAGE_ID/ links posted by others.  So it's
> probably more inside-out exposure than anything.

If someone hears about public-inbox, it's nice to know what other lists
they can use it for.

> As for other projects, I'm not aware of anybody else using it,
> yet.  I have some small projects using it, but most of those are
> one-off throwaways and I'm not comfortable promoting those along
> with public-inbox.  I admit: I'm not comfortable promoting
> anything I do, really.

Please take this as encouragement to do so.  I'd love to see the
public-inbox equivalent to the main page of https://lists.debian.org/ ,
as an example.  (And I'd love to have public-inbox archives of Debian
mailing lists.)

Re: Draft of Git Rev News edition 18

[Eric Wong]

Philip Oakley <philipoakley@iee.org> wrote:
> Would including a 'help' link on the main pages be possible? Maybe to the
> www-design page or whatever, just to make the users aware of the wider
> resourses, and a few key ways of entering search queries (such as the
> "gmane:123456" which gets that msg, while "gmane/123456" will get all
> messages that refered to that message (pure text search)..

Finally added https://public-inbox.org/git/_/text/help/

I actually totally overdid some things and trimmed it down before
publishing because I felt like it was becoming it's own wiki :x

  https://public-inbox.org/meta/20160818095150.17118-1-e@80x24.org/T/

Anyways, I'm still thinking there might be too much or too little
detail.  I don't know how well-known Atom feeds are, even.

Re: Draft of Git Rev News edition 18

[Eric Wong]

Josh Triplett <josh@joshtriplett.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 09:27:04PM +0000, Eric Wong wrote:
> > As for other projects, I'm not aware of anybody else using it,
> > yet.  I have some small projects using it, but most of those are
> > one-off throwaways and I'm not comfortable promoting those along
> > with public-inbox.  I admit: I'm not comfortable promoting
> > anything I do, really.
> 
> Please take this as encouragement to do so.  I'd love to see the
> public-inbox equivalent to the main page of https://lists.debian.org/ ,
> as an example.  (And I'd love to have public-inbox archives of Debian
> mailing lists.)

Just pushed out some POD (which should build to manpages),
so maybe early adopters can start hosting mirrors themselves(*).

   https://public-inbox.org/meta/20160907004907.1479-1-e@80x24.org/

I hope public-inbox-overview(7) is a good starting point
(along with the existing INSTALL) and there'll be more docs
coming at some point...


Writing documentation tends to make my attention span drift all
over the place; so maybe parts don't make sense or were glossed
over, but I'll be glad to help clarify anything.  (Responding
to emails is generally easier for me since I can answer things
specifically, tough to do for generic docs)


I'll try to get a tarball release out soonish,
but my schedule is unpredictable.


(*) None of the code has had any security audit, yet;
    and there's no warranty of course.