* Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1
[not found] ` <1126745323.7199.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
@ 2005-09-15 3:21 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-09-15 5:20 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-09-16 4:08 ` Horst von Brand
0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Linus Torvalds @ 2005-09-15 3:21 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Junio C Hamano; +Cc: Git Mailing List
On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche wrote:
>
> debian:~# cd linux-2.6/
> debian:~/linux-2.6# git log
> /usr/local/bin/git-log-script: line 4: less: command not found
A very strange Linux installation that doesn't come with "less"...
What a strange box. Anyway, that does point out that maybe the git RPM
spec should have "less" as a dependency.
Linus
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1
2005-09-15 3:21 ` "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1 Linus Torvalds
@ 2005-09-15 5:20 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-09-15 7:45 ` Junio C Hamano
2005-09-15 14:39 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-09-16 4:08 ` Horst von Brand
1 sibling, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: H. Peter Anvin @ 2005-09-15 5:20 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: Junio C Hamano, Git Mailing List
Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche wrote:
>
>>debian:~# cd linux-2.6/
>>debian:~/linux-2.6# git log
>>/usr/local/bin/git-log-script: line 4: less: command not found
>
>
> A very strange Linux installation that doesn't come with "less"...
>
> What a strange box. Anyway, that does point out that maybe the git RPM
> spec should have "less" as a dependency.
>
Generally you want to honour $PAGER if it is defined.
-hpa
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1
2005-09-15 5:20 ` H. Peter Anvin
@ 2005-09-15 7:45 ` Junio C Hamano
2005-09-15 8:39 ` David Kågedal
2005-09-15 14:39 ` Linus Torvalds
1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Junio C Hamano @ 2005-09-15 7:45 UTC (permalink / raw
To: H. Peter Anvin; +Cc: Linus Torvalds, Git Mailing List
"H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com> writes:
> Linus Torvalds wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche wrote:
>>
>>>debian:~# cd linux-2.6/
>>>debian:~/linux-2.6# git log
>>>/usr/local/bin/git-log-script: line 4: less: command not found
>> A very strange Linux installation that doesn't come with "less"...
>> What a strange box. Anyway, that does point out that maybe the git
>> RPM spec should have "less" as a dependency.
>
> Generally you want to honour $PAGER if it is defined.
We do, in the form of "something | ${PAGER:-less}".
On Debian, "less" is Priority "standard" and my understanding is
that the only thing we can (and should if I recall correctly)
omit from the dependency list is the packages of Priority
"essential", so technically we are required to list "less" as
our dependency. I do not know about RPM/Fedora.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1
2005-09-15 7:45 ` Junio C Hamano
@ 2005-09-15 8:39 ` David Kågedal
2005-09-15 16:07 ` Linus Torvalds
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: David Kågedal @ 2005-09-15 8:39 UTC (permalink / raw
To: git
Junio C Hamano <junkio@cox.net> writes:
> "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com> writes:
>
>> Linus Torvalds wrote:
>>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche wrote:
>>>
>>>>debian:~# cd linux-2.6/
>>>>debian:~/linux-2.6# git log
>>>>/usr/local/bin/git-log-script: line 4: less: command not found
>>> A very strange Linux installation that doesn't come with "less"...
>>> What a strange box. Anyway, that does point out that maybe the git
>>> RPM spec should have "less" as a dependency.
>>
>> Generally you want to honour $PAGER if it is defined.
>
> We do, in the form of "something | ${PAGER:-less}".
>
> On Debian, "less" is Priority "standard" and my understanding is
> that the only thing we can (and should if I recall correctly)
> omit from the dependency list is the packages of Priority
> "essential", so technically we are required to list "less" as
> our dependency. I do not know about RPM/Fedora.
On my Debian system, there is a "sensible-pager" which does a
${PAGER:-pager}, and "pager" which is a symlink to an installed pager
(using the 'alternatives' system). So a Debian package should
probably use one of those.
--
David Kågedal
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1
2005-09-15 5:20 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-09-15 7:45 ` Junio C Hamano
@ 2005-09-15 14:39 ` Linus Torvalds
1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Linus Torvalds @ 2005-09-15 14:39 UTC (permalink / raw
To: H. Peter Anvin; +Cc: Junio C Hamano, Git Mailing List
On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
>
> Generally you want to honour $PAGER if it is defined.
We do. But it falls back to "less" by default.
I realize that UNIX tradition is to fall back to "more", but let's face
it, that's just old and broken. There's "tradition" and there's "being
stupid and unable to change".
Of course, if RPM supports the notion of "suggest", maybe we can make
"less" a suggestion rather than a requirement, since you can still use git
without it as long as you set PAGER.
Linus
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1
2005-09-15 8:39 ` David Kågedal
@ 2005-09-15 16:07 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-09-15 17:48 ` David Kågedal
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Linus Torvalds @ 2005-09-15 16:07 UTC (permalink / raw
To: David Kågedal; +Cc: git
On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, David Kågedal wrote:
>
> On my Debian system, there is a "sensible-pager" which does a
> ${PAGER:-pager}, and "pager" which is a symlink to an installed pager
> (using the 'alternatives' system). So a Debian package should
> probably use one of those.
Ok, this is now indisputable proof that Debian people are insane.
They have "sensible-pager", but not "less"?
Guys, somebody should visit a few Debian people with a baseball bat that
is painted bright neon yellow, and has "CLUEBAT" written in big purple
letters on it. And beat them to a quivering pulp.
There's "being flexible", and there's "being a total ass". Debian is being
a total ass.
Linus
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1
2005-09-15 16:07 ` Linus Torvalds
@ 2005-09-15 17:48 ` David Kågedal
2005-09-15 18:15 ` Linus Torvalds
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: David Kågedal @ 2005-09-15 17:48 UTC (permalink / raw
To: git
Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> writes:
> They have "sensible-pager", but not "less"?
No, you read my message wrong, or I failed to describe it properly.
sensible-pager is just an indirection that uses your preferred pager.
This will usually be less, but if a user prefers to use e.g. "w3m" (or
"more") that can be done by reconfiguring a symlink (using the
update-alternatives program, or even a GUI such as galternatives).
So no, they haven't replaced less with sensible-pager. They just
provided another way to select which pager you want. Setting $PAGER
will still work the trick.
Running "sensible-pager" will check $PAGER an run that if set,
otherwise run the pager selected via the alternatives sytem, which
will usually be "less". The alternatives selection is done with a
symlink called "/usr/bin/pager".
The advantage is, I guess, consistency. Different programs don't have
to encode their own default pager.
To summarize: on a Debian system with "less" as the preferred pager,
these four invokations are equal:
$ ${PAGER:-less}
$ sensible-pager
$ pager
$ less
If you set $PAGER to something else, the first two variants will run
$PAGER, while the last two will still run "less".
--
David Kågedal
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1
2005-09-15 17:48 ` David Kågedal
@ 2005-09-15 18:15 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-09-15 22:08 ` Christian Meder
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Linus Torvalds @ 2005-09-15 18:15 UTC (permalink / raw
To: David Kågedal; +Cc: git
On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, David Kågedal wrote:
>
> No, you read my message wrong, or I failed to describe it properly.
No, I did get it.
It's the Debian people who don't get it.
Expecting other software projects to make cludges for Debian-specific
packages is _insane_.
In other word, no sane package will ever use "sensible-pager", because
it's not a sensible thing to do. Once Debian maintainers are "Big Poo-Bah
And OverLord of the KnownUniverse" and can force everybody else to have
"sensible-pager" too, maybe -then- it might make sense, but until then
it's just an odd-ball Debian thing that makes Debian maintainers either
(a) maintain stupid patches to teach other programs about it or (b) have
normal programs that use the _standard_ pagers in the absense of $PAGER.
And like it or not, there are two standard pages: "more" and "less". In
the immortal words: "To two shall you count. You shall not count to one,
except on your way to two. And you shall definitely NOT count to three,
not call it 'sensible-pager'".
The fact is, we HAVE a sensible-pager, and it is called "less".
And for old programs that assume that sensible-pager is "more", we either
install that _too_, or we make a symlink that points to "less".
And for people who want something else, everybody already supports the
STANDARD way of saying so: "$PAGER".
In other words, "sensible-pager" buys you absolutely _nothing_. Except for
confusion and extra work.
> The advantage is, I guess, consistency. Different programs don't have
> to encode their own default pager.
No. That's NOT an advantage. It's a disadvantage. Different programs sure
as hell will not do silly Debian-only things, so it just means that if
Debian tries to enforce this, they're only causing more work for their own
maintainers.
They're also causing more work and discomfort for their users, since now
their users will have to live with the fact that they are used to
non-standard behaviour.
And it has _zero_ upsides. Exactly because it's not standard. There's a
lot to be said for "do it like others do it".
Linus
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1
2005-09-15 18:15 ` Linus Torvalds
@ 2005-09-15 22:08 ` Christian Meder
2005-09-16 13:56 ` Theodore Ts'o
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Christian Meder @ 2005-09-15 22:08 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: git, David Kågedal
On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 11:15 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, David Kågedal wrote:
> >
> > No, you read my message wrong, or I failed to describe it properly.
>
> No, I did get it.
>
> It's the Debian people who don't get it.
>
> Expecting other software projects to make cludges for Debian-specific
> packages is _insane_.
Actually according to Debian policy, sensible-pager is a cludge which
should be used _only_ in the case that the upstream program is hard to
adapt to a PAGER environment approach. Only in this case the upstream
package should be patched to at least use sensible-pager.
>
> In other word, no sane package will ever use "sensible-pager", because
> it's not a sensible thing to do. Once Debian maintainers are "Big Poo-Bah
> And OverLord of the KnownUniverse" and can force everybody else to have
> "sensible-pager" too, maybe -then- it might make sense, but until then
> it's just an odd-ball Debian thing that makes Debian maintainers either
> (a) maintain stupid patches to teach other programs about it or (b) have
> normal programs that use the _standard_ pagers in the absense of $PAGER.
>
> And like it or not, there are two standard pages: "more" and "less". In
> the immortal words: "To two shall you count. You shall not count to one,
> except on your way to two. And you shall definitely NOT count to three,
> not call it 'sensible-pager'".
>
> The fact is, we HAVE a sensible-pager, and it is called "less".
>
> And for old programs that assume that sensible-pager is "more", we either
> install that _too_, or we make a symlink that points to "less".
Debian prefers to call the symlink "pager" and let the sysadmin decide
where it should point: less, more, whatever. The e2fsprogs upstream
package for instance supports PAGER->/usr/bin/pager->/usr/bin/less.
Granted /usr/bin/pager is probably Debian only but every upstream author
deciding whether to use PAGER:more or PAGER:less is not _that_ much
better.
Just wanted to nitpick. Now you can reignite your flamethrower ;-)
Christian
>
> And for people who want something else, everybody already supports the
> STANDARD way of saying so: "$PAGER".
>
> In other words, "sensible-pager" buys you absolutely _nothing_. Except for
> confusion and extra work.
>
> > The advantage is, I guess, consistency. Different programs don't have
> > to encode their own default pager.
>
> No. That's NOT an advantage. It's a disadvantage. Different programs sure
> as hell will not do silly Debian-only things, so it just means that if
> Debian tries to enforce this, they're only causing more work for their own
> maintainers.
>
> They're also causing more work and discomfort for their users, since now
> their users will have to live with the fact that they are used to
> non-standard behaviour.
>
> And it has _zero_ upsides. Exactly because it's not standard. There's a
> lot to be said for "do it like others do it".
>
> Linus
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe git" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
--
Christian Meder, email: chris@absolutegiganten.org
The Way-Seeking Mind of a tenzo is actualized
by rolling up your sleeves.
(Eihei Dogen Zenji)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1
2005-09-15 3:21 ` "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1 Linus Torvalds
2005-09-15 5:20 ` H. Peter Anvin
@ 2005-09-16 4:08 ` Horst von Brand
1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Horst von Brand @ 2005-09-16 4:08 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: Junio C Hamano, Git Mailing List
Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche wrote:
> >
> > debian:~# cd linux-2.6/
> > debian:~/linux-2.6# git log
> > /usr/local/bin/git-log-script: line 4: less: command not found
>
> A very strange Linux installation that doesn't come with "less"...
>
> What a strange box. Anyway, that does point out that maybe the git RPM
> spec should have "less" as a dependency.
Your wish is my command.
----
The git commands assume less(1) as pager. This adds the dependency, as
suggested by Linus.
Signed-off-by: Horst H. von Brand <vonbrand@inf.utfsm.cl>
---
git-core.spec.in | 5 ++++-
1 files changed, 4 insertions(+), 1 deletions(-)
0abd0856f2cb750a019451c7547694f36e60e83b
diff --git a/git-core.spec.in b/git-core.spec.in
--- a/git-core.spec.in
+++ b/git-core.spec.in
@@ -10,7 +10,7 @@ URL: http://kernel.org/pub/software/sc
Source: http://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/%{name}-%{version}.tar.gz
BuildRequires: zlib-devel, openssl-devel, curl-devel %{!?_without_docs:, xmlto, asciidoc > 6.0.3}
BuildRoot: %{_tmppath}/%{name}-%{version}-root
-Requires: sh-utils, curl, diffutils, rsync, rcs, openssh-clients, perl, python >= 2.4, tk
+Requires: sh-utils, curl, diffutils, less, rsync, rcs, openssh-clients, perl, python >= 2.4, tk
%description
This is a stupid (but extremely fast) directory content manager. It
@@ -44,6 +44,9 @@ rm -rf $RPM_BUILD_ROOT
%{!?_without_docs: %{_mandir}/man7/*.7*}
%changelog
+* Fri Sep 16 2005 Horst H. von Brand <vonbrand@inf.utfsm.cl>
+- Linus noticed that less is required, added to the dependencies
+
* Sun Sep 11 2005 Horst H. von Brand <vonbrand@inf.utfsm.cl>
- Updated dependencies
- Don't assume manpages are gzipped
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1
2005-09-15 22:08 ` Christian Meder
@ 2005-09-16 13:56 ` Theodore Ts'o
0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Theodore Ts'o @ 2005-09-16 13:56 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Christian Meder; +Cc: Linus Torvalds, git, David K?gedal
On Fri, Sep 16, 2005 at 12:08:12AM +0200, Christian Meder wrote:
> Debian prefers to call the symlink "pager" and let the sysadmin decide
> where it should point: less, more, whatever. The e2fsprogs upstream
> package for instance supports PAGER->/usr/bin/pager->/usr/bin/less.
> Granted /usr/bin/pager is probably Debian only but every upstream author
> deciding whether to use PAGER:more or PAGER:less is not _that_ much
> better.
Actually, debugfs uses $DEBUGFS_PAGER:$PAGER:pager:more:less as its
search path, where it looks for each executable in /usr/bin, /bin, and
the current directory.
Overkill, yes; but it was the best way to shut up the whiny debian
users who kept on filing bug reports. (Yes, yes, I'm softie.
Besides, it's userspace, and compared to GNOME, KDE, or Mozilla, the
bloat involved isn't even measurable. :-)
- Ted
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2005-09-16 13:57 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 11+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
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2005-09-15 3:21 ` "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1 Linus Torvalds
2005-09-15 5:20 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-09-15 7:45 ` Junio C Hamano
2005-09-15 8:39 ` David Kågedal
2005-09-15 16:07 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-09-15 17:48 ` David Kågedal
2005-09-15 18:15 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-09-15 22:08 ` Christian Meder
2005-09-16 13:56 ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-09-15 14:39 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-09-16 4:08 ` Horst von Brand
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