From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on dcvr.yhbt.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.3 required=3.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS shortcircuit=no autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from mail-ot1-x335.google.com (mail-ot1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by dcvr.yhbt.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E937C1F55B for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 00:11:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ot1-x335.google.com with SMTP id g5so9005038otg.6 for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 17:11:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OY/S9UHdD7V5zYIL5C0U87y+FsF1LJWtWNbBQ74YLYg=; b=U1wCADkFPpS7ntTqgos+KkisCXmdr0cBsVYjBPcIkwt+f5AWEq81RV7ru/ikZfRE/p tfyIq71aXncg6fQv1R5Ov94lws8vfkMKA1TVg+QEdeEgvkjiAN45O7JoZao49wxeQsA3 t5FnTS8gOtGbzNlTw7Ow9CoGaoPRFu2pfG9QS4fSZuNGLfzbb0v3qw061BqK7dMm6v1V xLuaHXmbG2hndwPSaXqHAr/e98uU6A3fiNGBK+abQd1f8pp3oV2NPtFA+hl7z9odSmqo 8ccbGAmISHFfDqp/W4Ej8FocbAdbtwD/Zx22SqrA6K0Ait7uOa3Ha5IKUC7SF1s8DTgc 3hbw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OY/S9UHdD7V5zYIL5C0U87y+FsF1LJWtWNbBQ74YLYg=; b=bH870FRj39rlZw68umsQSgGVEphpWxRSNbbaqm3PbS0VHW3JMp6QcQH+TyUaOsYbmi sHWgh3wyP40KdBDnmJYUx9IvKWYE9JUJiPLdJi9PQU8h0PR00xxJQJFeHRN71THE//2o iKQO8Jb2TgJGh4yKx1h+AovPJZTH9hsgQrpoWE0qEJLXLLMr2QhAbhUgTaf4Wy28Q5GD 0DQLR0ogZzgdwt+NRYQ3LGh2cqPUJN/vm/JH0t5+znKHDM6o5AWt3VFz+I4RemT9WcxU x0y38EZyd6ist+dGagQOUcomEQT01XK8kVtaS/FcYdPTttEUoK/f7w/6s47D0OXh6p8k fRcw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533q5adLyYyAGVd5ApAwEeU8cPsJ0TKm1iYEbAktfNk6j1kq7ntg sqObLnppsejFwgo2F8zeX+sNRwVHvt1wwa3eWko= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxpaOfzayfgXfjk0CIpK9eLDKZcDLtQ2mb4WW3EHSMpqeg24iGKa1lgD2yBTtA6jd+rmI4gDjtmpeikl5WvWRs= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:5612:: with SMTP id e18mr8988726oti.24.1591402297920; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 17:11:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200605220321.GA17860@dcvr> <20200605232757.GA28110@dcvr> In-Reply-To: <20200605232757.GA28110@dcvr> From: Varun Varada Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 19:11:27 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Patch] Update 24-hour times to use two digits for the hour To: Eric Wong Cc: meta@public-inbox.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" List-Id: Hi Eric, The issue of being able to determine whether a reply was on a different day still arises with your method, as replies that occurred before 12:00 on the same day would have the same problem. Either way, it is just as easy to see the changeover to the next day if it was a leading zero, as that indicates a reset of the clock, and it seems like quite a subjective preference. Nevertheless, it seems like the trade-off of making users learn something once vs. repetitively is a false one, given that most people are already familiar with seeing times with leading zeroes as 24-hour times, and furthermore reading ISO 8601 formats in general. The idea of "teaching one thing" in order to make the "output intended for humans" ultimately easier to read seems to defeat its original purpose, since people would have to unlearn what they already learned every time they quickly glance through the output. I hope you'll reconsider. Regards, Varun On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 at 18:27, Eric Wong wrote: > > Varun Varada wrote: > > Hi Eric, > > > > The "why?" is that leading zeroes are standard for virtually any > > 24-hour clock in the world > > (https://www.google.com/search?q=24-hour+time). This is even codified > > in the ISO 8601 standard > > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Times), which the project > > seems to be following. Without a leading zero, a user immediately > > expects an a.m./p.m. modifier, which there is not. > > Sorry, but no. This project does NOT blindly follow ISO-8601 or > such standards when it comes to output intended for humans. > > I admit the lack of AM/PM could be confusing at first in > standalone cases; but someone needs to learn that exactly once. > > What I care more about is repeated tasks. Making users focus > their eyes and waste energy parsing date and times for every > single thread they look at is much worse than training them > for one thing. > > Take for example: > https://public-inbox.org/git/20200222201749.937983-1-sandals@crustytoothpaste.net/T/#t > > 2020-02-24 18:26 ` Junio C Hamano > 2020-02-25 10:29 ` Johannes Schindelin > 2020-02-25 19:25 ` Junio C Hamano > 2020-02-26 3:05 ` brian m. carlson > 2020-02-26 3:11 ` Junio C Hamano > 2020-02-26 2:23 ` brian m. carlson > 2020-02-27 13:24 ` Johannes Schindelin > 2020-02-27 15:06 ` Junio C Hamano > > With the leading space instead of zero, my eyes don't even need > to be in focus to know the replies from 2-26 were on a different > day than the rest. The shape of the text is enough to tell, > I don't have to bring my eyes into focus to know that.